Helix Power Tower
11-14-2002, 05:59 PM
#21
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If you have a Delphi membership, here's the top 100 threads on the Helix on the TTORA board. Many of these contain first hand opinions and experience. The rest, we can both agree are heresay;
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/fin...tart=1&stop=50
Here's a comment from one member
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/fin...tart=1&stop=50
Here's a comment from one member
I agree with you about the amount of gains the company's claim, I don't think there that high but I still feel it and you don't so oh well. Lets wait another month and argue again when someone new to the board brings it up again. And I tried the helix spacer and needless to say it got sent back for a refund.
11-14-2002, 06:03 PM
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As always, it was good chatting with you and comparing notes, but, alas, I have to fly... I have a hot date tonight. 
More later once I see some responses from the board
Catch you later.
More later once I see some responses from the board
Catch you later.
11-14-2002, 10:23 PM
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I know some of you used to hang out on 4x4 Wire and may remember a thread about the Power Toilet where the owner of the company popped in to defend his product. I offered him a chance to put up or shut up. I told him to send me one to dyno test. I have access to a dyno, a normally aspirated Tacoma 3.4 as well as my Supercharged 4Runners. I told him it would be a fair test and I would post the results for the world to see and if the thing worked I would buy one. That guy tucked tail and was never heard from again.
I just don't see anyway that thing would be of any benifit at all on the type of induction system used on our engines. "Upto 20 HP." Does that mean if you install two of them then you will make the same 40 RW-HP improvement as a supercharger??? No way.
I think the thing is a total scam.
There have been some people that claim they have some improvement in HP and "throttle responce". Lets take a look at why that maybe.
Throttle responce improvement is most likely due to the throttle cable being stretched tighter so there is less slack in it so it will feel different when you first press on it. You can do the same thing by adjusting the slack out of the throttle cable.
More HP. I still think that is crap, but there is a chance that it is true, but not do to the spacer thing. The stock throttle body gasket on the 3.4 has a large protrusion that extends into the airflow a bit just in front of the PCV port in the intake track. That maybe there to help draw more air through the PCV system. I will bet you a box of donuts that the gaskets that come with the power toilet do not have that same restriction in it so that would allow more air flow that has nothing to do with the spacer. You can do the same thing for about $3 by installing the supercharger throttle body gasket. That has been shown to work and may people have done the "gasket mod" with a positive result.
The power toilet has been dynoed by several different enthusiest on several different board and it has consistantly shown a goose egg.
I am a real sucker for anything that will make my truck drive better or make more power. If I thought for one second that this thing had any potential at all I would have ordered mine a long time ago, but I just don't see it.
If you want to do some cheap mods that have been proven to increase the performance of your truck then do the following:
Air box deck plate or open front mod
AMSOIL air filter
Supercharger gasket mod
I really don't know for sure if the intake silencer mod will increase performance or not, but I had done that a very long time ago. The main air induction tube on my 96 and 97 is different then the 99+ trucks and I did not notice any additional performance, however it did make thing look nicer and I now have a very pleasant humm that is emitted at idle from the supercharger that is no longer being supressed. It is my guess that removing the silencers and replacing it with a smooth pipe is bound to increase airflow and that will increase power. It is also a cheap mod and I can think of no reason not to do it so add it to the list of cheap mods.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
I just don't see anyway that thing would be of any benifit at all on the type of induction system used on our engines. "Upto 20 HP." Does that mean if you install two of them then you will make the same 40 RW-HP improvement as a supercharger??? No way.
I think the thing is a total scam.
There have been some people that claim they have some improvement in HP and "throttle responce". Lets take a look at why that maybe.
Throttle responce improvement is most likely due to the throttle cable being stretched tighter so there is less slack in it so it will feel different when you first press on it. You can do the same thing by adjusting the slack out of the throttle cable.
More HP. I still think that is crap, but there is a chance that it is true, but not do to the spacer thing. The stock throttle body gasket on the 3.4 has a large protrusion that extends into the airflow a bit just in front of the PCV port in the intake track. That maybe there to help draw more air through the PCV system. I will bet you a box of donuts that the gaskets that come with the power toilet do not have that same restriction in it so that would allow more air flow that has nothing to do with the spacer. You can do the same thing for about $3 by installing the supercharger throttle body gasket. That has been shown to work and may people have done the "gasket mod" with a positive result.
The power toilet has been dynoed by several different enthusiest on several different board and it has consistantly shown a goose egg.
I am a real sucker for anything that will make my truck drive better or make more power. If I thought for one second that this thing had any potential at all I would have ordered mine a long time ago, but I just don't see it.
If you want to do some cheap mods that have been proven to increase the performance of your truck then do the following:
Air box deck plate or open front mod
AMSOIL air filter
Supercharger gasket mod
I really don't know for sure if the intake silencer mod will increase performance or not, but I had done that a very long time ago. The main air induction tube on my 96 and 97 is different then the 99+ trucks and I did not notice any additional performance, however it did make thing look nicer and I now have a very pleasant humm that is emitted at idle from the supercharger that is no longer being supressed. It is my guess that removing the silencers and replacing it with a smooth pipe is bound to increase airflow and that will increase power. It is also a cheap mod and I can think of no reason not to do it so add it to the list of cheap mods.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
11-15-2002, 04:25 AM
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You have to admit, every product claims to give you more HP than you actually get. Maybe the Power Tower is a little more than the actual results, but EVERY product does the same thing!
11-15-2002, 07:02 AM
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I'd understand the throttle being stretched causing a better throttle sensation if it were, but the Helix comes with hardware to relocate the throttle linkage. It doesn't simmply get "Yanked" along for the ride. You can adjust the cable tension by the movement of two screws on the stock mount. Do you think I didn't adjust my cable tension after moving it to it's new home? I have just as much play in it now as before. I made certain of that when I installed it. There was no change. The same applies to the Cruise Control cable.
Also, the stock TB gasket on MY truck did not have a "D" shaped opening. It was a perfectly round circle. Maybe the older trucks have that. So, on my truck that doesn't account for any gain either.
I know it worked for me. It did everything it claimed to do. I read the dyno results they had. I saw what size of engine they used. I can do the math. I knew it wouldn't make anywhere near 20 HP on my truck, nor did I expect it to. But it did make a noticeable, positive difference in the way it drives.
I don't really care if anyone buys one or not. Like I mentioned, it comes with a 30 day money back guarantee and it certainly won't help the SC guys.
Peace
Dr. Z
Also, the stock TB gasket on MY truck did not have a "D" shaped opening. It was a perfectly round circle. Maybe the older trucks have that. So, on my truck that doesn't account for any gain either.
I know it worked for me. It did everything it claimed to do. I read the dyno results they had. I saw what size of engine they used. I can do the math. I knew it wouldn't make anywhere near 20 HP on my truck, nor did I expect it to. But it did make a noticeable, positive difference in the way it drives.
I don't really care if anyone buys one or not. Like I mentioned, it comes with a 30 day money back guarantee and it certainly won't help the SC guys.
Peace
Dr. Z
11-16-2002, 09:54 AM
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To be completely fair on this, I posted to the TTORA board seeking personal experiences and a link to the dyno results.
I got a lot of responses and they fell into one of three categories,
Tried the Helix and liked it.
Tried the Helix and didn't like it.
A friend of my cousin's nephew tried the helix and...
Disregarding the third bucket, the responses are almost evenly split between the first two. However, no one has yet been able to offer any proof either way. Most of those who liked the helix claim more noise and *maybe* some horsepower gains.
While I continue to seek the dyno results I once saw, I have one of the units on the way to me from a member who saw a loss in performance and and mileage after putting it in. Once it get's here, I will find a victim, er, volunteer to install it in a N/A truck and we will go dyno it before and after.
I got a lot of responses and they fell into one of three categories,
Tried the Helix and liked it.
Tried the Helix and didn't like it.
A friend of my cousin's nephew tried the helix and...
Disregarding the third bucket, the responses are almost evenly split between the first two. However, no one has yet been able to offer any proof either way. Most of those who liked the helix claim more noise and *maybe* some horsepower gains.
While I continue to seek the dyno results I once saw, I have one of the units on the way to me from a member who saw a loss in performance and and mileage after putting it in. Once it get's here, I will find a victim, er, volunteer to install it in a N/A truck and we will go dyno it before and after.
11-16-2002, 12:11 PM
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I seriously doubt that it would cause a loss of performance just like I doubt that it will increase it.
I look forward to your result.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
I look forward to your result.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
11-16-2002, 01:26 PM
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Rob,
I applaud your effort to be willing to spend money on this. If I had it, I'd spend it. However, since your attitude is so negative towards the Helix to begin with, I'd like to bring up a few things.
1. If you are going to dyno the truck with before/after results, I think that the truck should be run 3 times in each configuration and the AVERAGE of each configuration be used. Since Dyno results can vary greatly between each run, I think this would be the best way to prove/disprove anything.
2. Before running each configuration for the first time, the EFI fuse gets pulled for 15 min to Zero out the ECU. This way, the ECU is running on the default maps so that there can be no advantage of the EFI having learned the stock setup. The ECU is left alone for the remaining 2 runs in each configuration.
3. I'd like to be present for the testing if possible for fairness' sake. There is a dyno shop in my area that will give a discount on dyno prices provided 6 people participate. They will give 3 runs per vehicle for $55. Since we'd run the truck being used for testing purposes a total of 6 times in two different configurations, maybe they will count it as 2 vehicles. Then we only need a total of 5 vehicles. I can probably scrape together $55 for this and I think we can round up 3 other people to join us.
So, what do you think about that? We don't live too far away from one another.
With that said, I think the greatest benefit that the Helix provides is the change in torque curve. I am certain it brings the torque/power curve down a bit in the RPM range. Which to me seems more useful for this particular style of vehicle and the way most people use it.
Dr. Z
I applaud your effort to be willing to spend money on this. If I had it, I'd spend it. However, since your attitude is so negative towards the Helix to begin with, I'd like to bring up a few things.
1. If you are going to dyno the truck with before/after results, I think that the truck should be run 3 times in each configuration and the AVERAGE of each configuration be used. Since Dyno results can vary greatly between each run, I think this would be the best way to prove/disprove anything.
2. Before running each configuration for the first time, the EFI fuse gets pulled for 15 min to Zero out the ECU. This way, the ECU is running on the default maps so that there can be no advantage of the EFI having learned the stock setup. The ECU is left alone for the remaining 2 runs in each configuration.
3. I'd like to be present for the testing if possible for fairness' sake. There is a dyno shop in my area that will give a discount on dyno prices provided 6 people participate. They will give 3 runs per vehicle for $55. Since we'd run the truck being used for testing purposes a total of 6 times in two different configurations, maybe they will count it as 2 vehicles. Then we only need a total of 5 vehicles. I can probably scrape together $55 for this and I think we can round up 3 other people to join us.
So, what do you think about that? We don't live too far away from one another.
With that said, I think the greatest benefit that the Helix provides is the change in torque curve. I am certain it brings the torque/power curve down a bit in the RPM range. Which to me seems more useful for this particular style of vehicle and the way most people use it.
Dr. Z
11-16-2002, 01:42 PM
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If you are going to be doing you dyno testing at full throttle there is no need to yank the fuse. The trim adjustments only affect closed loop operation and it does not affect open loop which occures at full throttle.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
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11-16-2002, 03:09 PM
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You are certainly welcome to attend the dyno runs, but I will likely do it in a shop up this way that the sportscar club at work has a relationship with. Many arguments similar to this one have been settled at that shop as the club members try to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of their Vipers, Porche's and Ferrari's.
I think that the fairest way to do this will be to post the planned test sequence here before doing the runs, so that feedback such as that given by Gadget can be discussed.
Odds are good that I will just rent the shop for the day, it ends up being cheaper if you are going to do multiple runs and that way I can dyno my truck, which I have been dying to do and a few other assorted vehicles that I may invite.
One minor correction Dr. Z, I don't believe that I have a negative attitude toward the mod. I just have no evidence that the device actually does anything. For every person who says it does, I have one who says it doesn't and there are credible folks on both sides of the discussion. Normally I would argue that it was up to the person making the assertions of these gains to prove that the device works and that the default should be that the device is snake oil until proven otherwise. But, in this circumstance, I have the means to do the test and no reason to bias the results.
I think that the fairest way to do this will be to post the planned test sequence here before doing the runs, so that feedback such as that given by Gadget can be discussed.
Odds are good that I will just rent the shop for the day, it ends up being cheaper if you are going to do multiple runs and that way I can dyno my truck, which I have been dying to do and a few other assorted vehicles that I may invite.
One minor correction Dr. Z, I don't believe that I have a negative attitude toward the mod. I just have no evidence that the device actually does anything. For every person who says it does, I have one who says it doesn't and there are credible folks on both sides of the discussion. Normally I would argue that it was up to the person making the assertions of these gains to prove that the device works and that the default should be that the device is snake oil until proven otherwise. But, in this circumstance, I have the means to do the test and no reason to bias the results.
03-21-2003, 01:22 PM
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I just came across this thread while searching for info on the throttle body spacers (helix power tower, airaid poweraid). I know it's been a few months since the last post, but was wondering if you ever actually went to the dyno for results. I just put one of these things on my '01 S-Runner, and would be curious to see the results others noted. I'd also like to volunteer for the dyno runs if it hasn't been done yet. I have put the K&N FIPK in, but still have my stock setup and can easily swap that in and out to compare that, too.
Jay
'01 S-Runner
- K&N FIPK - Poweraid TBS - TRD LSD - TRD Body Kit
Seattle, WA
Jay
'01 S-Runner
- K&N FIPK - Poweraid TBS - TRD LSD - TRD Body Kit
Seattle, WA
03-21-2003, 01:51 PM
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It was dynoed by some people on Tundra Solutions and got a big fat 0 improvement just as I predicted. They now call it the Power Toilet.
Gadget
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03-21-2003, 01:52 PM
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I "felt" a little midrange power gain. But I can tell you this, the partial throttle whistle is worth the $97 to me.
(I had this on my 98 3.4)
I loved the whistle it made under partial throttle. Interesting idea about the SC TB gasket. I might just go to the dealer and pick up one of those - until I get the power tower for my 96.
My vote: I dont think it makes significant power gains. Maybe a little more throttle response, especially at midrange. I gained about .5 MPG (documented). But once again, the whistle it makes with the deckplate open is really cool. My opinion.
(I had this on my 98 3.4)
I loved the whistle it made under partial throttle. Interesting idea about the SC TB gasket. I might just go to the dealer and pick up one of those - until I get the power tower for my 96.
My vote: I dont think it makes significant power gains. Maybe a little more throttle response, especially at midrange. I gained about .5 MPG (documented). But once again, the whistle it makes with the deckplate open is really cool. My opinion.
03-21-2003, 02:20 PM
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Yeah, the whistle is interesting, and I do feel a little low end boost, which is what the Poweraid box advertises.
I still have to reset my ECU (didn't do it when I did the install Tuesday), but so far I notice a little more oomph at the low end.
And I'd like to see if round gaskets help, too. The gaskets that came with my kit were both "D" shaped openings. I almost cut them myself (paper gaskets) but decided to check online to see if anyone else had comments. Looks like the supercharger gasket is the way to go, maybe I'll just get a pair of those.
Jay
I still have to reset my ECU (didn't do it when I did the install Tuesday), but so far I notice a little more oomph at the low end.
And I'd like to see if round gaskets help, too. The gaskets that came with my kit were both "D" shaped openings. I almost cut them myself (paper gaskets) but decided to check online to see if anyone else had comments. Looks like the supercharger gasket is the way to go, maybe I'll just get a pair of those.
Jay
03-21-2003, 05:00 PM
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Question about resetting the ECU on my 3.4. Which fuse would I pull to just get the ECU? I hate reprogramming the radio.
There's one under the hood for the OBD, and two in the dash for the ECU (ECU-IG and ECU-2, I think they were labeled).
Right now I have the underhood OBD out while I work some overtime, I'll see if that does the trick when I leave. That's quite a while from now though, so if anyone can post the correct answer, I'd appreciate it.
Jay
- K&N FIPK - Poweraid TBS - TRD LSD - TRD Body Kit
There's one under the hood for the OBD, and two in the dash for the ECU (ECU-IG and ECU-2, I think they were labeled).
Right now I have the underhood OBD out while I work some overtime, I'll see if that does the trick when I leave. That's quite a while from now though, so if anyone can post the correct answer, I'd appreciate it.
Jay
- K&N FIPK - Poweraid TBS - TRD LSD - TRD Body Kit
03-21-2003, 05:37 PM
#39
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You're looking under the hood, the fuses in the kick panel won't do it.
On my '96, the fuse is labeled "EFI". It only needs to be out for a couple of minutes (5 minutes tops for me). If you pull it and stand there with the hood open, you can hear the relay open. When you hear that, you can put the fuse back in.
On my '96, the fuse is labeled "EFI". It only needs to be out for a couple of minutes (5 minutes tops for me). If you pull it and stand there with the hood open, you can hear the relay open. When you hear that, you can put the fuse back in.
03-22-2003, 10:38 PM
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Ok, now what? I pulled the EFI fuse for a while. When I put it back in, the check engine light was out, but the truck wouldn't idle. I drove it for a while, then after a few stops, I noticed it was idling again, but the check engine light was on again. When I got home, I took the TBS out and disconnected the battery again, so it's reset again. This time I haven't driven it anywhere, except to back it out the driveway, and it was stalling again. Is this something others have seen? As it sits now, I have jus the K&N FIPK on, no TBS. Will this clear up?
Thanks for the help.
Thanks for the help.
