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Ok well it looks like I am going to change everything that i had planned. Last night, I sent a PM to a member here asking a question about wiring and he ended up calling me and he was more than gracious enough to end up on the phone with me for about an hour and a half or more until about 11:00 my time and he is on the East coast. I don't want to mention his name since that may invite everyone thinking of swapping to PM him and expect the same but I consider him to among the most knowledgeable guys here, and most of you would as well.
Anyway, a few things that I hadn't considered for some stupid reason is that the clutch slave and the shifting fork for the 3.0 manual is going to be right in the way of the stock crossover. I can't understand how the hell I didn't notice that and thought about it. Better now than when I had the wiring harness, ecm, and dropping everything in thinking I was making progress only to realize I was about to be starting over. He said that he has tried and tried to make the stock crossover work with the same manual/transfer setup that I have and that it is impossible. That got me thinking that every swap I have read is either an auto (so no clutch slave or fork), or they have swapped the crossover. Anyone seen anything different? With a 3.4, stock crossover, manual 90's 5 speed?
So essentially the combo that I have of the 3.0 manual/transfer married to the stock crossover is bound for divorce before they meet.
That leaves me at plan B.......well actually, plan f i think.
I am going auto.
The good thing is that I already have the transmission, computer, and wiring....and its all California spec already. I will have to find a top shift transfer case and get an adapter from Marlin, Trail-Gear but I was going to have to buy a clutch kit, flywheel, ecm, and wiring harness anyway and I wont need any of those now, so its a wash. I would assume that I will need a different drivelines and a crossmember as well so i will have to research that. I have read nothing on the auto setup and when guys are explaining that, I usually just scroll through. I'll have to go back and read about that and the transfer shifter lever mods. I did read Cadmans and MT Goat's writeup on modifying the lever and that is over my capabilities mainly because of the matching I think, but we'll see. I would think marlin sells something. Hopefully not for a pound of gold like everything else.
I had a guy coming next weekend to buy the Runner auto/transfer/shifter so i will have to tell him sorry now. Makes me feel bad but he will find something else.
So in conclusion, the motor, trans, ecm, wiring from the 97 runner are going in the 92 pickup now. Scrap the Runner transfer and replace with an older top shift, gear driven transfer and adapter from someone. I know that the 23 spline is more desirable and I will look for one but if its twice the cost and really hard to find I may go with the 21. That probably leaves Marlin out as an option for an adapter because I thought that they only make them for the 23 spline.
Maybe one day in the future after the referee is far behind me, I will swap back into a 5 speed but for now I cant think of another road.
Anyone see any issues that I am not thinking of before I get too far on this new path??
What are the rules that changed dntsdad? I'm going to have to ref mine at some point (I didn't have to smog this year) and I'm curious what the difference is. I'm running the smog legal downey headers.
not sure on what changed as i dont know what the rules were before but when i talked to the ref yesterday he said said that NOTHING can be changed to the rear O2 sensor. That really leaves me screwed with trying to stay manual.
Also, he did mention the Downey headers by name and even though they are EO approved, they will fail an inspection because they alter the OBD2 system. Every ref will be different I think from site to site and I am sure that some guys have passed with the Downeys. All I am saying is what he told me.
This guy knew his stuff as most of them have that I have talked regarding this swap. WHen I told him 3.4 into 92 10 seconds into our conversation he interuppted me and said "exhaust is going to kill you". He knew ORS, he knew the crossover flop, etc.
Good call on talking to the referee. Doing the swap in California is not the same as doing it in other states, as you are now finding out, and he pretty much summed up the problem with the 3.4 swap; the exhaust.
I'm just guessing, but the referee that passed me with my modified cat probably did not realize it was modified. Their first source of documentation (diagrams, pictures, etc...) comes from official manufacturer documentation and he had to rely on the pictures from the FSM. The weld on my 3.4 cat doesn't look like a hack job and he probably didn't think anything of it. At least I lucked out there.
I still check the BAR website and don't see anything about rule changes, so you'll be going through the same process I did. The only change that would really affect you would be the new catalytic converter law that is in effect starting the beginning of this year.
What trumps everything as far as legality goes with emissions related devices is OEM and EO approved parts. If it isn't an OEM part, it MUST have an OE number, and unfortunately there are no aftermarket cross-over pipes that have the approval. And regardless of whether one existed, it would still need to exit on the same side as the OEM crossover because that is how Toyota configured the exhaust system. Referring back to the new catalytic converter law, the cat/cats can only be installed in the OEM location and the O2 sensors must also be in the OEM location. You can see where this is all heading to pretty quickly. I asked the second ref that if the ORS crossover was legal and the exhaust was to cross back under the transmission to the OEM configured side, would this pass? No. Now the distance from the exhaust manifolds to the O2 sensors is changed.
I questioned the two referees I dealt with about the same issues and also about some swaps passing with non legal crossovers, exhaust configurations, etc.. and they both said there are not different sets of rules. Referees that pass these vehicles do so illegally at the risk of losing their licenses. The emissions test portion may be different if you are in the Basic or Enhanced area, but everything else is the same. Both referees also suggested that most people probably switch their exhaust systems after they pass. Really?
One idea to throw out there is go in with a 2wd tranny and run the cat unmodified from your donor. The transfercase interferes with the cat, but a 2wd tranny MAY eliminate this. Of course you'll hang on to transfercase. I don't think anyone makes a 21/23 spline coupler for a gear drive case, at least I haven't seen one anywhere. Marlin does the transfercase lever mod. I think it used to be $100.
At my last referee visit, while I waited for my appointment he was informing the owner of the Honda ahead of me that the ENGINE he swapped in was not legal. The owner apparently didn't do any research on his swap and went into it unprepared. And the second referee told me the most common engine swaps he sees are V8 swaps in Jeeps, and these also fail most of the time because of exhaust configuration issues.
Hey Jason, don't know why I overlooked the obvious but if you just keep the 3.4 left side output transfercase, your cat/transfercase clearance issue may be solved. The crossmember & crossmember mount would still be an issue, but that might be an easier problem to solve than the more important exhaust configuration. Of course you wouldn't have 4wd, for now.
man thats such a good and obvious idea that its no wonder that i never thought of it. I may just do that. Take the whole chunk of trans and transfer and slap it in, get everything smogged and then redo it all after inspection.
Hell maybe just get a driver side straight axle??
Anyway, onto today. Decided to get some stuff done that i actually know has to be done without major decisions. Have to get that 5 speed and transfer case out so we did that. Not to bad without a transmission jack. Redneck style with a floor jack and a few pieces of wood.
I also decided to get the body lift on. We bought it from Roger Brown a.k.a. 4Crawler and was a great kit. UHMW blocks and new nuts, and bolts. Everything went together well but his instructions online could use some help. What a difference 1.5" makes (thats what she said)
Well we almost got it all installed.
We'll finish the bed tomorrow maybe. I have been thinking about the removal of the abs and/or the lsps sensor. I may just remove the bed to do that. Not sure. I have read that its a real pain with the gas tank in the way and was thinking that with the bed off, it may be easier.
Ok so Cadman. The shifter assembly that you used came from a 00 Tacoma with no center console correct? The hole in your stock floorboard is different than mine I wonder why? Your truck came with auto?? Maybe that is why. Also your dipstick is on the driver side i noticed cause I saw you had some interference with the steering shaft. Mine is on the passenger side on my runner. My door sticker on the Runner says A340F.....hmmmm i wonder why those differences if anyone knows.
Yes. I got the shifter assembly from a guy doing a diesel swap in his '00 Tacoma and I bought the console from Toyota of Dallas. His interior was tan, so I also bought the shifter handle new. I had to cut the floorboard for the shifter subplate I made. The floorboard needs to be cut even if you bolt the shifter directly to it. A Dremel with metal cutting discs made quick work of that.
The ORS kit I bought came with the driverside gauge tranny pan. I'm not sure, but I think its for a T-100. I'd have to look that up on the Toyota EPC to be sure. There was some slight contact with the shaft but a little bending of the dipstick bracket cured that. The dipstick that came with the tranny was on the passenger side just like yours.
what is the reasoning on changing the side of the dipstick? Anyone know? I am wondering if that is something that i am going to have to do....find a donor/new pan and dipstick from a T-100. I was also poking around the runner inside looking for a cruise computer to that someone requested when i saw a relay up in the driver kick panel labeled "auto trans". Anyone know if there is a lot of little stuff like this that i am going to need to find throughout the Runner?
Obviously they include it in the kit for a reason.
Also, always been curious when I read that you buy things from Toyota of Dallas. Are they that significantly cheaper to offset shipping cost, or do you have friends/family that work there?
I believe there is interference between the front 3.0 propellor shaft and the location of the 3.4 dipstick/pan.
Prices at ToD are very significant, even with shipping. They are a Gold Sponser over at TTORA and have a huge, loyal customer base. The only time I buy parts from the local dealer is if I need it immediately or if its a cheap item. I wish I had a relative or friend that worked there for all of the other stuff they carry.
I don't know what that relay you found is for, but I didn't need any additional relays, ECUs, etc... . If you have AC or cruise control it may be a different story.
Ok thanks for providing the info. I will start shopping for a pan and dipstick. Maybe I can find one being parted out.
Didn't do much today as today was a yard-work day.
Did start thinking about that relay.
Here it is:
This is where it was located:
I traced all the wires across the dash.
They goes across the dash and one, a black/yellow goes into the back of the fuse panel above the DRIVERS kick panel and end here.
The other two that cross the dash go out to the 4x4 vsv's where the hood release cable exits the cab.
Now I don't have ADD on my 92 truck anymore. We removed everything and switched to manual hubs. When i say we removed everything, I mean everything. The VSV's, the canister, the ADD axle tube where the vacuum actuator was and replaced it with a non-ADD tube.
I would think that all it does is suck in the axle actuator via the vsv's or push it out based on the location of the transfer case shifter. I wonder if not hooking this up will cause me trouble codes. Anyone else have this and used it?
By the way, I have decided that Cadman's idea is 100% the way that I am going. I will just put this motor/trans/transfer from the runner in the truck to get everything legal and legit. I will keep searching for a manual ecm and harness and then swap back to 5 speed and redo the exhaust properly when everything is done and legal and hope to hell the smog techs in the future dont know anything other than how to put the sniffer in the tailpipe.
Crossmember is an issue but I can jury rig something to make it work well enough for the ref. I asked specifically if they would give me a hard time about safety issues such as an exhaust configured inches from fuel lines, etc. He said that all he cared about was emissions related items so I can imagine they even notice a cross member unless it was pink. Hopefully I can get away with not having to cut and remake the driveline for the rear.
I wonder if they even care if it will move? I didnt ask that. Isnt this just a visual inspection? If it just started and ran would they be cool with that in case the rear driveline had to be modded and I wanted to avoid that? Hell, I could trailer it over there.
I wonder if they even care if it will move? I didnt ask that. Isnt this just a visual inspection? If it just started and ran would they be cool with that in case the rear driveline had to be modded and I wanted to avoid that? Hell, I could trailer it over there.
Not quite. Once you make your appointment, the test will take place at the Automotive Technology Dept at a community college you choose from a list that is available to you.
You will DRIVE there, and when it is time for your appointment a technician trainee will come out and do a quick inspection of the vehicle exterior for damage; scratches, dents, etc..., and note them on a form which you will sign.
A quick note: The referee and trainee are not permitted to remove, replace, fix or adjust anything. The only removal will be anything needed to perform a portion of the test. You need to make sure everything is hooked up. If you forget to attach a hose or something you will fail and the test ends, although when I failed the visual both times they still ran the inspection all the way to the end.
Next they drive onto a dynomometer and from there you have no more contact with them until the test is over, about 45 minutes. You will not be allowed in the test area and depending how the shop is laid out, you may not even see the test take place.
First is the visual test. It is not just a casual look under the hood. Every emission device you should have will be checked and compared to a database, from the tip of the exhaust to the engine. If there is something questionable, they may or may not come out and ask about it. They will be looking for all devices you must have on the vehicle.
Next it the function test. Every device will be tested and the vehicle will be running for some of this.
Next is the emission test. Self explainatory. They will be running it on the dyno and conducting the tests.
Once the inspection is over, the trainee will come out and tell you the referee is finishing up the paperwork and will come out in a few minutes. If the trainee tells you that you will not be charged for the smog certificate, you failed somewhere during the test. If he tells you to pay $8.25, or whatever it is now, congratulations you passed.
Your vehicle will be running for a majority of the time it is there, so if you have cooling or lubrication problems you need to fix them before going. Make sure your OBDII plug is hooked up correctly & installed in the cab or don't bother going.
I dunno if you got the answer to this one in a pm from someone or somethin, but I had the drain plug/motor mount interference issue. Here was my solution:
Note the grinding on the top of the bracket. It didn't take much.
Also, I don't know if you've inspected a swapped rig in person, but I'll be in Fresno area by the end of the week, I believe, and if you'd like I'll let ya look at whatever and see it all in person. Not much help for your exhaust/tranny issues, though...I did mine Oregon legal and haven't smogged it in Cali yet.
I appreciate your offer but as of right now I am not sure what I would look at. Maybe when I get further along I may take you up on that if you are in this area again.
Pretty sure the one who had it in their write up was Goat, actually. It wasn't in my swap write up, that pic was from when I installed the trail-gear solid motor mounts.
I'll be there for a few days, I'm sure...replacing a head gasket on a buddy's Escalade. Otherwise the next time I know I'll be anywhere near is mid Jan or so in McClellan/Sac.
Pm me if you change your mind anytime.
I haven't got a bunch done in the last few days. Hard during the workweek. I am major wimp with the cold. I absolutely hate being cold so its hard to get motivated to go outside, even in the garage.
Did go out and get the motor mount installed. I had to grind the mount a bit and probably ended up taking off a bit more than i wanted but it'll be fine.
Friday night I will get the trans and transfer out from the Runner and hopefully, maybe drop in the motor in Saturday or Sunday. I kinda painted myself into a box a little because I sold the wheels and tires of the Runner and now I cant really move the damn thing. Its on the side of my house with about 1.5" feet on each side so I have no idea how I am going to get the transmission out now. I have to find some spare tires now to be able to move it. I had no intention of taking it out anytime soon except to sell. I almost sold it two weekends ago but the guy couldnt come from San Francisco due to Thanksgiving. He wanted to come this weekend so i had to call him and tell him the bad news. That would have been terrible as I would now be shopping for a new one.
I have been studying the wiring in the Runner finding what I have to remove. I think I have a decent handle on it, especially for not having the EWD's as of yet. I will do that in the next few days when i have 2-3 hours to spend downloading. Any advice on that? I planned on getting everything wiring, engine, trans, related and then sorting it out later.
Can anyone think of anything I should do on the motor before dropping it in that I havent done yet?
I'd relocate the fuel supply by loosening the banjo bolt and rotating it to the passenger side so you won't need an adapter hose and risk it leaking. It's a heck of a lot easier if you do it outside of the truck. I didn't realize until I had the motor in so I had to struggle a bit. If you take the banjo bolt all the way out, make sure you're putting the washers in the right locations. I credit Elvota for figuring this out. Check out his thread on this when you can, it was very helpful to me.
12-05-2009, 07:43 AM
I don't want to mention his name since that may invite everyone thinking of swapping to PM him and expect the same but I consider him to among the most knowledgeable guys here, and most of you would as well.
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