best plugs and wires
02-20-2005, 11:58 PM
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Carbon core OE wires are a standard service item. Thay are made to be replaced at certain intervals. Just because you where still able to fire a plug with a 25k ohm plug wire doesnt mean that thay where still good. Most are junk to be honest and only do 1 thing well and thats supress radio interference so you can listen to Paul Harvey on AM radio. When it comes to conducting current would you use a piece of fiberglass with a little carbon coating on it to conduct electricity? Probably not unless you wanted very little power to actually make it to the destination.
I recently read "Optimizing your Ignition" and this is a very informative no nonsense book on electronic ignitions. When I went to buy wires I took my Ohm meter with me. As far as cheap over the counter wires go I tested about 20 different brands including some of the build them yourself kits from accell. I found the bosch spiral core wires (mag core thay call them) to be about the best cheap wire available in my area. Thay test out at about 300 ohms per foot compared to my old stock wires that where 6000 ohms per foot. If you have a schucks/kragen parts store locally look for thier borg/warner nascar brand wires. These are made by bosch and test exactly the same but only cost about $25. The advantage to using spiral core wires is that you get most of the EMI supression of the carbon crap wires and much less resistance ... ohh and did I mention those $25 wires have a lifetime warranty? The spriral core wires should not wear out like carbon wires but thay still require care like any wire when handling them. Get some spark plug boot silicone grease while your at it so you dont rip the next set.
The best wires I have been able to track down are MSD @ 40 ohms per foot but they are darn expensive. If you are thinking about buying plugs try not to spend more than a few dollars per plug. All those fancy expensive plugs are just a band-aid for a weak ignition system.
The moral of the story is be sure to measure the resistance on the plug wire before you buy it. The more resistance it has the less spark energy actually makes it to your plug. More resistance = less current for a given amount of voltage that is Ohms law. The stock toyota coils dont run enough voltage to even warrant an 8mm wire wich is why the factory went to 5mm wires later on. I use the 7's with my jacobs ignition and thay are just fine. The only argument I can see for an 8mm or larger wire is that you can abuse it a bit more when handling it and it will take it. For our uses there is no electrical advantage to large wires infact the actual conducter in the wire is no larger then the 7mm ones it just has more silicone rubber around it making it fatter. The extra insulation makes it less likley to arc over to another engine part but we dont run enough voltage to have that problem unless you use crap wires with soo much resistance that the easiest path to ground is out the insulation rather than trying to run through a junk high resistance OE wire.
Edit... I was never able to find an NGK wire set to test so if you get some find out the resistance and figure the ohms per foot on them. Thay may be a good wire as well. Take your ohm meter with you shopping and test the short wire on each brand thay try and sell you. I think you will be amazed at how much difference you find and that higher cost wire wont always get you a better wire. While your at it you may as well look at different distributor cap and rotor sets. Be sure to set the rotor in the cap upside down and have a look at how tight the tolerances are. You will notice products from established companies like standard motor products are very tight tolerance where as some of the no name imported crap has a huge gap between the rotor and the cap. The really good caps actually dont look that great at a glance. Thay are usually molded then the contacts are added then its actually machined at that point instead of being simply molded and left as "close enough" like the junk stuff is.
As far as plugs go I use autolites (as the crowed shudders). Thay seem to wear the longest due to thier hard electrode. All of the high dollar plugs you see on the market for the most part are just band aids for weak ignitions. small electrodes and sharp points make for a lower arc-over voltage allowing weaker ignitions to fire the plug easier. If you have a weak ignition then buy $10 plugs every time or just upgrade your ignition and buy $1.29 plugs that last 2x as long. A weak ignition also includes things like Stock OE plug wires that have huge amounts current killing resistance even if thay look nice and even say toyota.
I recently read "Optimizing your Ignition" and this is a very informative no nonsense book on electronic ignitions. When I went to buy wires I took my Ohm meter with me. As far as cheap over the counter wires go I tested about 20 different brands including some of the build them yourself kits from accell. I found the bosch spiral core wires (mag core thay call them) to be about the best cheap wire available in my area. Thay test out at about 300 ohms per foot compared to my old stock wires that where 6000 ohms per foot. If you have a schucks/kragen parts store locally look for thier borg/warner nascar brand wires. These are made by bosch and test exactly the same but only cost about $25. The advantage to using spiral core wires is that you get most of the EMI supression of the carbon crap wires and much less resistance ... ohh and did I mention those $25 wires have a lifetime warranty? The spriral core wires should not wear out like carbon wires but thay still require care like any wire when handling them. Get some spark plug boot silicone grease while your at it so you dont rip the next set.
The best wires I have been able to track down are MSD @ 40 ohms per foot but they are darn expensive. If you are thinking about buying plugs try not to spend more than a few dollars per plug. All those fancy expensive plugs are just a band-aid for a weak ignition system.
The moral of the story is be sure to measure the resistance on the plug wire before you buy it. The more resistance it has the less spark energy actually makes it to your plug. More resistance = less current for a given amount of voltage that is Ohms law. The stock toyota coils dont run enough voltage to even warrant an 8mm wire wich is why the factory went to 5mm wires later on. I use the 7's with my jacobs ignition and thay are just fine. The only argument I can see for an 8mm or larger wire is that you can abuse it a bit more when handling it and it will take it. For our uses there is no electrical advantage to large wires infact the actual conducter in the wire is no larger then the 7mm ones it just has more silicone rubber around it making it fatter. The extra insulation makes it less likley to arc over to another engine part but we dont run enough voltage to have that problem unless you use crap wires with soo much resistance that the easiest path to ground is out the insulation rather than trying to run through a junk high resistance OE wire.
Edit... I was never able to find an NGK wire set to test so if you get some find out the resistance and figure the ohms per foot on them. Thay may be a good wire as well. Take your ohm meter with you shopping and test the short wire on each brand thay try and sell you. I think you will be amazed at how much difference you find and that higher cost wire wont always get you a better wire. While your at it you may as well look at different distributor cap and rotor sets. Be sure to set the rotor in the cap upside down and have a look at how tight the tolerances are. You will notice products from established companies like standard motor products are very tight tolerance where as some of the no name imported crap has a huge gap between the rotor and the cap. The really good caps actually dont look that great at a glance. Thay are usually molded then the contacts are added then its actually machined at that point instead of being simply molded and left as "close enough" like the junk stuff is.
As far as plugs go I use autolites (as the crowed shudders). Thay seem to wear the longest due to thier hard electrode. All of the high dollar plugs you see on the market for the most part are just band aids for weak ignitions. small electrodes and sharp points make for a lower arc-over voltage allowing weaker ignitions to fire the plug easier. If you have a weak ignition then buy $10 plugs every time or just upgrade your ignition and buy $1.29 plugs that last 2x as long. A weak ignition also includes things like Stock OE plug wires that have huge amounts current killing resistance even if thay look nice and even say toyota.
Last edited by Ganoid; 02-21-2005 at 12:06 AM.
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06-02-2005, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganoid
The moral of the story is be sure to measure the resistance on the plug wire before you buy it. The more resistance it has the less spark energy actually makes it to your plug.
06-02-2005, 02:53 PM
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Ganoid goes with the premise that low resistance as measured by a DC potential automatically equals good. The problem is that you cannot use DC resistance to judge the performance of an ignition wire. AC characteristics of a wire are very different than its DC characteristics. The energy of an ignition spark is carried in a magnetic field generated by the pulse of the spark. The energy delivered to the plug is not necessarily attentuated by the resistance of the wire.
This may seem counter-intuitive, but AC signals react differently to wires than do DC signals. You are concerned with impedance and not just resistance (which is a component of impedance). Impedance relates voltage and current for an AC signal and has both an amplitude and phase components. It gets fairly complex in a hurry, but a skim over any circuits or fields textbook will demonstrate that how energy moves in response to an impulse input is very different than just a simple DC circuit.
With a stock system, the OEM (which I throught were NGK) wires are fine. They do a good job of suppressing EMI & RFI radiation. They fit well and perform fine. They do need to be replaced periodically, maybe every few years. But IMHO they are the best mix of cost and performance for a stock truck.
This may seem counter-intuitive, but AC signals react differently to wires than do DC signals. You are concerned with impedance and not just resistance (which is a component of impedance). Impedance relates voltage and current for an AC signal and has both an amplitude and phase components. It gets fairly complex in a hurry, but a skim over any circuits or fields textbook will demonstrate that how energy moves in response to an impulse input is very different than just a simple DC circuit.
With a stock system, the OEM (which I throught were NGK) wires are fine. They do a good job of suppressing EMI & RFI radiation. They fit well and perform fine. They do need to be replaced periodically, maybe every few years. But IMHO they are the best mix of cost and performance for a stock truck.
06-02-2005, 07:28 PM
#11
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i'm currently running NGK wires and plugs, with an accel super coil. i've gapped them to .040 and it seems to start up more easily.
maybe i'll get a mallory or MSD system someday, but for now this works fine. carbed trucks benefit the most from an MSD system since the multiple sparks at low RPM helps burn a richer fuel charge that you'd get while climbing a hill.
maybe i'll get a mallory or MSD system someday, but for now this works fine. carbed trucks benefit the most from an MSD system since the multiple sparks at low RPM helps burn a richer fuel charge that you'd get while climbing a hill.
06-04-2005, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveInDenver
Ganoid goes with the premise that low resistance as measured by a DC potential automatically equals good. The problem is that you cannot use DC resistance to judge the performance of an ignition wire. AC characteristics of a wire are very different than its DC characteristics. The energy of an ignition spark is carried in a magnetic field generated by the pulse of the spark. The energy delivered to the plug is not necessarily attentuated by the resistance of the wire.
This may seem counter-intuitive, but AC signals react differently to wires than do DC signals. You are concerned with impedance and not just resistance (which is a component of impedance). Impedance relates voltage and current for an AC signal and has both an amplitude and phase components. It gets fairly complex in a hurry, but a skim over any circuits or fields textbook will demonstrate that how energy moves in response to an impulse input is very different than just a simple DC circuit.
With a stock system, the OEM (which I throught were NGK) wires are fine. They do a good job of suppressing EMI & RFI radiation. They fit well and perform fine. They do need to be replaced periodically, maybe every few years. But IMHO they are the best mix of cost and performance for a stock truck.
This may seem counter-intuitive, but AC signals react differently to wires than do DC signals. You are concerned with impedance and not just resistance (which is a component of impedance). Impedance relates voltage and current for an AC signal and has both an amplitude and phase components. It gets fairly complex in a hurry, but a skim over any circuits or fields textbook will demonstrate that how energy moves in response to an impulse input is very different than just a simple DC circuit.
With a stock system, the OEM (which I throught were NGK) wires are fine. They do a good job of suppressing EMI & RFI radiation. They fit well and perform fine. They do need to be replaced periodically, maybe every few years. But IMHO they are the best mix of cost and performance for a stock truck.
I guess you could look at it from the AC side but we are talking about 83Hz @5k on the tach??? I dont think a whole lot of AC principals apply at 83hz using a spiral core wire. We are not talking about a magnetic core inductor here! Most people dont go too far north of 3500 on the tach so we are talking more along the lines of 58hz? Cmon guys its not rocket science at this frequency. No I didnt measure the inductance of the spiral core wire! I guess if you really wanted to be technical you could work the inductance numbers and arrive at a given impedence for the short 6" coil wire. At the given RPM it is probably the only wire in the chain that will see enough frequency to apply AC current principals. Heck throw a clamp meter on an active plug wire and prove me wrong?
Edit..
The energy of an ignition spark is carried in a magnetic field generated by the pulse of the spark
Impedance relates voltage and current for an AC signal and has both an amplitude and phase
I do have to admit that post did fit all of the criteria in the old phrase...
"If you cant dazzle them with brilliance... Baffle them with bull˟˟˟˟˟?"
Not implying that your post was bull˟˟˟˟˟ by any means.. but you had entirely too many multi cyllable words (we call them $50 words) for what you where trying to say to a bunch of shadetree yota mechanics. I applaude your effort to enlighten us but please speak in a language every one on the board can understand
06-04-2005, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 4RUNR
Quite possibly the most ill informed advice to picking out a set of quality ignition wires.
Are you implying OHM's law is incorrect? Its real simple math and in our low frequency situation I think the inductive and reactive variables are insignificant. Remove inductive and reactive resistance and you are only left with good ol DC resistance. I say again if you think I am wrong throw a clamp meter on several different wires and show me how a higher DC resistance plug wire delivers more current (AKA..spark energy) to the plug.
Ya know its been 10+ years since I was in school studying electronics so I guess I could be flawed in some of my "off the top of my head" thinking. As I sit here at 4AM half asleep it seems like one could just run the 3.0 engine at 1200 rpms and throw an AC current clamp meter on a plug wire and see the results. humm 1200 RPM @4AM seems like 120Hz on the coil wire? I think simple clamp meters just see the pulse and probably would not care if none of the AC voltage fell below Reference ground? Heck even if thay did we are not trying to actually measure the current only compare it to another wire right? So long as test conditions are the same... uhh I think?
Last edited by Ganoid; 06-04-2005 at 04:52 AM.
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