Zinc additive in the oil???? (3VZE)
06-17-2011, 09:16 AM
#21
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Sorry should have clarified, running synthetic in a freshly rebuilt engine is not a good idea. You want some wear in the cyl walls, bearings etc etc and synthetic just doesn't allow for that. Not to mention the typical rebuilt motor is almost always gonna have some blowby due to rings being in the process of seating. Synthetic is gonna do what it was designed to do and flow better which can cause a higher amount of burning oil within the first few hundred miles or until the rings fully seat.
06-17-2011, 09:23 AM
#22
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Sorry should have clarified, running synthetic in a freshly rebuilt engine is not a good idea. You want some wear in the cyl walls, bearings etc etc and synthetic just doesn't allow for that. Not to mention the typical rebuilt motor is almost always gonna have some blowby due to rings being in the process of seating. Synthetic is gonna do what it was designed to do and flow better which can cause a higher amount of burning oil within the first few hundred miles or until the rings fully seat.
06-17-2011, 01:07 PM
#25
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From what I have seen in some older toyotas they recommend 10w40 primarly because of the cams not having any bearings. I am sticking to what they said. I ahve run synthetic and had issues with oil leaks as the oil got to thin in the Texas Summer and seeped past and blew out the rear main seal. I will only run dyno oil either castrol or valvoline. I will never run penzoil(parafin based).
02-18-2014, 05:31 PM
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so has anyone actually experienced any issues with the break in oil in regards to the catalytic converter? I'm from california and i have to smog it right after i get that engine in.
any recommendations?
any recommendations?
02-19-2014, 11:12 AM
#27
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Zinc's negative impact on cats is well proven. If I lived in California, I'd have no fun with all the restrictions on my toys...
But in regards to oil, I started an oil thread here, that I never really completed but the links cover all the additive stuff: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...l-test-276509/
I've seen a lot of folks here that have to buy a new cat every year. What I'd do is keep my old cat, and uninstall the new one as soon as I passed emissions and reinstall the new one right before each year's annual test...
But in regards to oil, I started an oil thread here, that I never really completed but the links cover all the additive stuff: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...l-test-276509/
I've seen a lot of folks here that have to buy a new cat every year. What I'd do is keep my old cat, and uninstall the new one as soon as I passed emissions and reinstall the new one right before each year's annual test...
Last edited by RSR; 02-19-2014 at 11:22 AM.
02-20-2014, 04:19 AM
#28
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You guys crack me up. Lets talk facts for a minute and ignore what our engine builders best friends grandpappy's cousin said.
Zinc is an additive, among many others, to the oil's base stock. It is not naturally occurring and they do not refine it out. They stopped adding it in the much higher quantities for one specific reason.....catalytic converters.
Once catalytic converters were standard equipment in the 80's the smog people and manufacturers started to notice a trend. When the vehicle got older the cats were beginning to fail. The reason they were failing was because the cars were burning oil and it only happened on cars that had engines that were burning oil.
Here is the "fact" part. When the zinc in the oil burns it really gums up the cat, leading to premature failure. Since poorly functioning or missing cats leads to poor emissions a decision was made to reduce the zinc content in oil in order to reduce the risk of a poorly functioning cat.
The moral of the story is that if your vehicle isn't burning oil then it will work fine in your motor and won't effect your catalytic converter one bit. If you are burning oil you run the risk of premature cat failure after long term usage.
Because everyone is afraid of being sued the oil manufacturers are required to but a warning label on oil that has a high zinc content.
That being said, after I am done restoring my 4Runner I fully plan to run a high quality synthetic in my 22RE. There are many oils out there that still have plenty of zinc in them. Red line is the best in my opinion. It uses the best base stock and has very high zinc, moly, and phosphorus levels. It has a very strong detergent package as well. It is expensive but will last alot longer than 3,000 miles so its better in the long run.
If you care to geek out on oil, go to bobistheoilguy.com and start learning.
Zinc is an additive, among many others, to the oil's base stock. It is not naturally occurring and they do not refine it out. They stopped adding it in the much higher quantities for one specific reason.....catalytic converters.
Once catalytic converters were standard equipment in the 80's the smog people and manufacturers started to notice a trend. When the vehicle got older the cats were beginning to fail. The reason they were failing was because the cars were burning oil and it only happened on cars that had engines that were burning oil.
Here is the "fact" part. When the zinc in the oil burns it really gums up the cat, leading to premature failure. Since poorly functioning or missing cats leads to poor emissions a decision was made to reduce the zinc content in oil in order to reduce the risk of a poorly functioning cat.
The moral of the story is that if your vehicle isn't burning oil then it will work fine in your motor and won't effect your catalytic converter one bit. If you are burning oil you run the risk of premature cat failure after long term usage.
Because everyone is afraid of being sued the oil manufacturers are required to but a warning label on oil that has a high zinc content.
That being said, after I am done restoring my 4Runner I fully plan to run a high quality synthetic in my 22RE. There are many oils out there that still have plenty of zinc in them. Red line is the best in my opinion. It uses the best base stock and has very high zinc, moly, and phosphorus levels. It has a very strong detergent package as well. It is expensive but will last alot longer than 3,000 miles so its better in the long run.
If you care to geek out on oil, go to bobistheoilguy.com and start learning.
Last edited by AdmiralYoda; 02-20-2014 at 04:22 AM.
02-20-2014, 06:04 AM
#29
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Put it on the shelf
I run zinc additive. My solution to impacts on my catalytic converter is to keep mine safely up on a shelf in my garage. It is far away from any zinc, motor oil, or for that matter engine exhaust. I expect it to last a good long time up there.
02-20-2014, 06:31 AM
#30
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Running rotella 15w-40 and lucas oil additive cured my oil consumption issues. Before I was burning about a quart every few weeks. The engine only has about 130k on it too. I run the oil in everything now 
I had also been trying different oils and oil weights out. walmart cheapo brand, castrol, mobil 1, mobile 5000, etc. So far rotella has worked really well. I will say I also believe in lucas oil additive, the old ford 5.4L work truck I drove for eons burned a qt every few days. Added lucas, burned a quart maybe every month.
I had also been trying different oils and oil weights out. walmart cheapo brand, castrol, mobil 1, mobile 5000, etc. So far rotella has worked really well. I will say I also believe in lucas oil additive, the old ford 5.4L work truck I drove for eons burned a qt every few days. Added lucas, burned a quart maybe every month.
02-20-2014, 06:40 AM
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Give the Rotella T6 a try. Its a full synthetic with a healthy zinc package. 15W-40 might be a bit thick though.....I'd say the 5W-40 would be better for our application. They are both a -40W at operating temp, I'd just be worried about the cold pumping ability of the 15W in these nasty winters we've been having. Its got a nice detergent package as well as the primary market is for dirty diesels. The T6 costs about $20 for a gallon at Wally World.
Last edited by AdmiralYoda; 02-20-2014 at 06:42 AM.
02-20-2014, 06:45 AM
#32
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Give the Rotella T6 a try. Its a full synthetic with a healthy zinc package. 15W-40 might be a bit thick though.....I'd say the 5W-40 would be better for our application. They are both a -40W at operating temp, I'd just be worried about the cold pumping ability of the 15W in these nasty winters we've been having. Its got a nice detergent package as well as the primary market is for dirty diesels. The T6 costs about $20 for a gallon at Wally World.
02-20-2014, 03:09 PM
#33
Registered User
You guys crack me up. Lets talk facts for a minute and ignore what our engine builders best friends grandpappy's cousin said.
Zinc is an additive, among many others, to the oil's base stock. It is not naturally occurring and they do not refine it out. They stopped adding it in the much higher quantities for one specific reason.....catalytic converters.
Once catalytic converters were standard equipment in the 80's the smog people and manufacturers started to notice a trend. When the vehicle got older the cats were beginning to fail. The reason they were failing was because the cars were burning oil and it only happened on cars that had engines that were burning oil.
Here is the "fact" part. When the zinc in the oil burns it really gums up the cat, leading to premature failure. Since poorly functioning or missing cats leads to poor emissions a decision was made to reduce the zinc content in oil in order to reduce the risk of a poorly functioning cat.
The moral of the story is that if your vehicle isn't burning oil then it will work fine in your motor and won't effect your catalytic converter one bit. If you are burning oil you run the risk of premature cat failure after long term usage.
Because everyone is afraid of being sued the oil manufacturers are required to but a warning label on oil that has a high zinc content.
That being said, after I am done restoring my 4Runner I fully plan to run a high quality synthetic in my 22RE. There are many oils out there that still have plenty of zinc in them. Red line is the best in my opinion. It uses the best base stock and has very high zinc, moly, and phosphorus levels. It has a very strong detergent package as well. It is expensive but will last alot longer than 3,000 miles so its better in the long run.
If you care to geek out on oil, go to bobistheoilguy.com and start learning.
Zinc is an additive, among many others, to the oil's base stock. It is not naturally occurring and they do not refine it out. They stopped adding it in the much higher quantities for one specific reason.....catalytic converters.
Once catalytic converters were standard equipment in the 80's the smog people and manufacturers started to notice a trend. When the vehicle got older the cats were beginning to fail. The reason they were failing was because the cars were burning oil and it only happened on cars that had engines that were burning oil.
Here is the "fact" part. When the zinc in the oil burns it really gums up the cat, leading to premature failure. Since poorly functioning or missing cats leads to poor emissions a decision was made to reduce the zinc content in oil in order to reduce the risk of a poorly functioning cat.
The moral of the story is that if your vehicle isn't burning oil then it will work fine in your motor and won't effect your catalytic converter one bit. If you are burning oil you run the risk of premature cat failure after long term usage.
Because everyone is afraid of being sued the oil manufacturers are required to but a warning label on oil that has a high zinc content.
That being said, after I am done restoring my 4Runner I fully plan to run a high quality synthetic in my 22RE. There are many oils out there that still have plenty of zinc in them. Red line is the best in my opinion. It uses the best base stock and has very high zinc, moly, and phosphorus levels. It has a very strong detergent package as well. It is expensive but will last alot longer than 3,000 miles so its better in the long run.
If you care to geek out on oil, go to bobistheoilguy.com and start learning.
Whether you burn oil or not, the phosphorous volatilizes/vaporizes (phosphorous itself detaches from the ZDDP molecular chain) and passes through the crankcase ventilation system (on 3vze both driver side always open breather tube and the passenger size PCV valve), into your air intake system, onto the exhaust system, ruining your CAT. This happens regardless of whether you burn oil.
That's why there's the development and addition of new anti-wear additives that are as, if not more effective, than zinc -- additives like titanium. Ti doesn't require the phosphorous bonding like the zinc does so doesn't harm your cat or mess w/ emissions.
02-20-2014, 03:20 PM
#34
Registered User
This speaks to how the phosphorous basically coats you cat's catalysts, thereby not allowing it to create the reaction to reduce all gases that your exhaust testing checks for -- don't believe phosphorous is measured in emissions testing, but maybe so...
http://www.motorweek.org/features/go...nc_in_your_oil
Gamma_Hugo, you should be fine to run a break in oil for your emissions testing. Over time high ZDDP oils will lead to premature failure of your cat, but it isn't instantaneous.
For oil weights, head over to Bob's Oil University series where he walks you through selecting oil weight based upon appropriate pressures for operating temps.
Yes, running higher weight oils might reduce oil burn, but all you're really doing is delaying an inevitable engine rebuild. The heavier weight oil doesn't lubricate as well as lighter weight and if the pressures are actually over what you're engine is designed for, you're also causing additional wear and tear through higher pressures/strain of the heavier weight oil.
Something to think about. The thought that heavier weight oil is always better has been proven wrong time and again. And it's also basically the argument that folks make for dino over synthetic oil (dino oil is better for breaking in/seating your piston rings, but that's about it).
http://www.motorweek.org/features/go...nc_in_your_oil
Gamma_Hugo, you should be fine to run a break in oil for your emissions testing. Over time high ZDDP oils will lead to premature failure of your cat, but it isn't instantaneous.
For oil weights, head over to Bob's Oil University series where he walks you through selecting oil weight based upon appropriate pressures for operating temps.
Yes, running higher weight oils might reduce oil burn, but all you're really doing is delaying an inevitable engine rebuild. The heavier weight oil doesn't lubricate as well as lighter weight and if the pressures are actually over what you're engine is designed for, you're also causing additional wear and tear through higher pressures/strain of the heavier weight oil.
Something to think about. The thought that heavier weight oil is always better has been proven wrong time and again. And it's also basically the argument that folks make for dino over synthetic oil (dino oil is better for breaking in/seating your piston rings, but that's about it).
Last edited by RSR; 02-20-2014 at 03:24 PM.
02-24-2014, 09:23 AM
#35
Registered User
Give the Rotella T6 a try. Its a full synthetic with a healthy zinc package. 15W-40 might be a bit thick though.....I'd say the 5W-40 would be better for our application. They are both a -40W at operating temp, I'd just be worried about the cold pumping ability of the 15W in these nasty winters we've been having. Its got a nice detergent package as well as the primary market is for dirty diesels. The T6 costs about $20 for a gallon at Wally World.
Has there been a definitive answer to the rumor that putting synthetic in an old motor that's only had dino in it will make it leak like a siv?
1STTOY4X4 above had a similar experience
From what I have seen in some older toyotas they recommend 10w40 primarly because of the cams not having any bearings. I am sticking to what they said. I ahve run synthetic and had issues with oil leaks as the oil got to thin in the Texas Summer and seeped past and blew out the rear main seal. I will only run dyno oil either castrol or valvoline. I will never run penzoil(parafin based).
If I think I already have some weepy seals, should I stick with a high-mileage-specific dino or one of the high-zinc dinos that has been mentioned already? Rotella and Valvoline was one...
02-24-2014, 09:34 AM
#36
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Someone starts pouring synthetic in there, which typically has a high detergent level.....and all that gunk starts getting cleaned out. Now all of those rotten seals that were protected by a half in of sludge start weeping.
And usually its a "my brother said" or "my friends old girlfriends fathers baby daddy told me" type of thing. Not many people actually ever experience this...its mostly just rumor passed down from no where.
But here is the truth. That wives tale has carried over from the early days of synthetics and refuses to die. Synthetics then did not have the seal conditioning additives and other things that they have today. Modern synthetics should actually reduce leaks compared to dino oil.
Plus I'd rather have a few leaks and have top notch lubricity and protection for my engine than go without leaks but have a sludgefest. Just sayin.
02-24-2014, 11:27 AM
#37
Registered User
Zinc is good at shortening the length a common cold 
But in motor oil? Naw. There's a billion oil additives that all claim they are better than everyone else's oil. Problem is, there's no data to back any of these claims up so it's all up for speculation (like this thread).
Save your money.
But in motor oil? Naw. There's a billion oil additives that all claim they are better than everyone else's oil. Problem is, there's no data to back any of these claims up so it's all up for speculation (like this thread).
Save your money.
02-24-2014, 12:04 PM
#38
Registered User
FGZ -- If switching to a synthetic, you should first run a detergent-based engine flush with your current oil. Amsoil sells one -- most of the stuff in auto stores is far harsher solvent based. Then change to synthetic.
What causes the leaks is that dino oils produce a tremendous amount of sludge and varnish all over your engine. This hinders the oil's ability to reach the metal parts to provide proper lubrication, but also coats your dead and dying seals/gaskets which prevents leaks and disguises the true sorry state of some gaskets/seals. Your call on which is more important, but the proper thing to do is replace seals/gaskets when they first start to leak to prevent bigger leaks. On the 3.0 V6 3vze, the only perpetually leaking part is the valve cover gaskets -- and typically they're not big leaks.
Additionally, the reason dinos leak less when the engine is cold is that they become thicker/less viscous. While this is a plus for less oil leaks if you have failed gaskets/seals, this also is directly indicative of the fact that your engine will suffer significantly more wear and tear upon cold startup -- some argue that up to 90% of engine wear occurs at cold startup. Again, make your decisions accordingly.
Insofar as high mileage oil, it has formulas that soften and swells all gaskets/seals on your engine. While this does stop/slow leaks on your dead and dying gaskets/seals, it also significantly shortens the life of your good gaskets/seals. Another of the short term cheaper, long term increased expense implications of your oil choices. Those gasket additives are the only significant addition to high mileage oil, and why high mileage is a dangerous marketing gimmick and oil that should be avoided.
Lastly, I cannot iterate enough that all running higher weight oil than recommended by owners manual will do is increase wear and tear on your engine (speaking to the second number at operating temp number; the first numbers don't matter except from a engine wear perspective and lower weight here is always better if wanting to provide maximum protection to your engine), unless you hook up a proper oil pressure gauge and test various weight oils for your optimal oil range.
Please read bob is the oil guy's motor oil university! This lesson particularly pertains to the operating oil weight issue: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-105/ Earlier lessons discuss the cold weight number and why lower is much, much better.
And as far as running diesel oil, be aware that typically they are on the thicker end of their given weights relative to gasoline intended oils. Can result in lower MPGs as well as the aforementioned increased wear at cold startup. The higher ZDDP will result in faster destruction of your cat.
Basically, modern engines are increasingly going with lighter weight oils due to MPG gains and increased engine life that are realized (especially with increased startup protection due to the 0ws and 5ws oils). More modern additives packages like Titanium result in improved emission control system life as well. Some, like Castrol Ti, appear to have been reformulated to provide maximum protection w/ reduced ZDDP. You can add additives to your oils, but most of the higher grade oils have very specific additive/oil composition packages that are probably best left alone. Take time to look at their composition specifics and choose your oil accordingly. As mentioned, here is the oil analysis thread that I started but ran out of time and haven't looped back to finish: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...l-test-276509/
Your car and your money, but let's at least get the facts right.
What causes the leaks is that dino oils produce a tremendous amount of sludge and varnish all over your engine. This hinders the oil's ability to reach the metal parts to provide proper lubrication, but also coats your dead and dying seals/gaskets which prevents leaks and disguises the true sorry state of some gaskets/seals. Your call on which is more important, but the proper thing to do is replace seals/gaskets when they first start to leak to prevent bigger leaks. On the 3.0 V6 3vze, the only perpetually leaking part is the valve cover gaskets -- and typically they're not big leaks.
Additionally, the reason dinos leak less when the engine is cold is that they become thicker/less viscous. While this is a plus for less oil leaks if you have failed gaskets/seals, this also is directly indicative of the fact that your engine will suffer significantly more wear and tear upon cold startup -- some argue that up to 90% of engine wear occurs at cold startup. Again, make your decisions accordingly.
Insofar as high mileage oil, it has formulas that soften and swells all gaskets/seals on your engine. While this does stop/slow leaks on your dead and dying gaskets/seals, it also significantly shortens the life of your good gaskets/seals. Another of the short term cheaper, long term increased expense implications of your oil choices. Those gasket additives are the only significant addition to high mileage oil, and why high mileage is a dangerous marketing gimmick and oil that should be avoided.
Lastly, I cannot iterate enough that all running higher weight oil than recommended by owners manual will do is increase wear and tear on your engine (speaking to the second number at operating temp number; the first numbers don't matter except from a engine wear perspective and lower weight here is always better if wanting to provide maximum protection to your engine), unless you hook up a proper oil pressure gauge and test various weight oils for your optimal oil range.
Please read bob is the oil guy's motor oil university! This lesson particularly pertains to the operating oil weight issue: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-105/ Earlier lessons discuss the cold weight number and why lower is much, much better.
And as far as running diesel oil, be aware that typically they are on the thicker end of their given weights relative to gasoline intended oils. Can result in lower MPGs as well as the aforementioned increased wear at cold startup. The higher ZDDP will result in faster destruction of your cat.
Basically, modern engines are increasingly going with lighter weight oils due to MPG gains and increased engine life that are realized (especially with increased startup protection due to the 0ws and 5ws oils). More modern additives packages like Titanium result in improved emission control system life as well. Some, like Castrol Ti, appear to have been reformulated to provide maximum protection w/ reduced ZDDP. You can add additives to your oils, but most of the higher grade oils have very specific additive/oil composition packages that are probably best left alone. Take time to look at their composition specifics and choose your oil accordingly. As mentioned, here is the oil analysis thread that I started but ran out of time and haven't looped back to finish: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...l-test-276509/
Your car and your money, but let's at least get the facts right.
Last edited by RSR; 02-24-2014 at 12:29 PM.
02-24-2014, 12:12 PM
#39
Registered User
Zinc is good at shortening the length a common cold
But in motor oil? Naw. There's a billion oil additives that all claim they are better than everyone else's oil. Problem is, there's no data to back any of these claims up so it's all up for speculation (like this thread).
Save your money.
But in motor oil? Naw. There's a billion oil additives that all claim they are better than everyone else's oil. Problem is, there's no data to back any of these claims up so it's all up for speculation (like this thread).
Save your money.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...older-engines/
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...-in-motor-oil/
Engine oil additives are typically used for following purposes:
1. Anti wear
2. Anti scuff
3. Corrosion inhibitor
4. Rust inhibitor
5. Detergent
6. Dispersant
7. Anti Oxidant
8. PH balancer/prevent acidification of oil
Last edited by RSR; 02-24-2014 at 12:39 PM.
02-24-2014, 12:33 PM
#40
Registered User
I know you do your homework on anything you put in your truck RSR, which I like and is a great way to approach things for auto repair and life in general. However, there's a lot of speculation and a lot of opinions. I suppose if we all owned race or high performance vehicles, this would be more relevant. But we don't, we are talking about underpowered 20 year old engines. Having a motor oil with more or less zinc isn't going to make a difference. Maybe if you just put a brand new engine in, but not for most of us that are looking at 150k+ miles on our rigs.
What will make a difference is motor oil weight and viscocity, which you covered well. People run thicker oil to try and stop oil leaks which is a terrible way to keep your engine running well long-term. Unless of course they really do not care about it.
What will make a difference is motor oil weight and viscocity, which you covered well. People run thicker oil to try and stop oil leaks which is a terrible way to keep your engine running well long-term. Unless of course they really do not care about it.
