Hurdles to building a high power 22R-E?
#21
Registered User
500hp out of a 22RE is doable. It's all about running a custom ECU that can handle it (obviously nothing Toyota offers would handle that), and it would obviously have to be a boosted motor. With enough boost and fuel, you can get crazy numbers from any motor. The 22RE is in fact very similar the the Mitsubishi G54B, which my buddy runs. It's a 2.6L 4 banger, and he is currently @ 400HP +/- on moderatly low boost and small turbo. It's all about airflow, how much you can get into the motor, and how fast you can get it out.
Money is a big factor when trying to build up a 22RE, because like everyone else has mentioned, you can take that same amount of money and buy a different motor that has 3 times the power....but all in all, all said and done, you can make a 22RE have as much power as you want!
Money is a big factor when trying to build up a 22RE, because like everyone else has mentioned, you can take that same amount of money and buy a different motor that has 3 times the power....but all in all, all said and done, you can make a 22RE have as much power as you want!
Last edited by Erik Beeman; 08-06-2009 at 09:51 AM.
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
I have been hanging around the 22RTE-trucks.com forum and I have seen some tall talk and even mention of using a GT35 turbo, but not much actually happening over 250rwhp on pump gas. The saving grace is that they make at least that much torque as well. I don't know if it's the tuning, low redline, or what, but it seems like the 22R_ loses tolerance for pump gas around that output range.
#23
Registered User
Any high performance engine costs money and with today's labor costs even more. The 22R series motor is a very rugged motor but to get every horsepower out of it is labor intensive. The bare block should be a seasoned block and totaly blueprinted, decked, oil holes chamfered, "O" ring the block, etc. The engine will have to go to maximum safe bore and stroked with a forged steel crank-polished, balanced, etc. Forged connecting rods, special forged pistons and rings, dry sump oiling system, crank scraper, performance oil pump, performance water pump, water jacket core holes tapped and screw-in plugs, torque plate for reinforcing the block, etc.
20R head with large Chevy valves, head porting-intake exhaust, cc'd and matched combustion chambers, decked, etc. performance camshaft, rocker arms, chamfered / modified oil holes, adjustable cam shaft gear, double chain drive, crankshaft and waterpump pulleys, etc. turbocharger / supercharger system, exhaust header, ignition system, nitous oxide system, fuel injection system, fuel supply system and the list goes on. We are talking well over $10,000.00 to do this actually closer to $15,000 -$18,000. A factory Chevy 350 fastburn crate motor produces 385HP and costs about $4200.00 for another $5,000 - $6,000 you can get 650+ HP plus the thing will last alot longer.
20R head with large Chevy valves, head porting-intake exhaust, cc'd and matched combustion chambers, decked, etc. performance camshaft, rocker arms, chamfered / modified oil holes, adjustable cam shaft gear, double chain drive, crankshaft and waterpump pulleys, etc. turbocharger / supercharger system, exhaust header, ignition system, nitous oxide system, fuel injection system, fuel supply system and the list goes on. We are talking well over $10,000.00 to do this actually closer to $15,000 -$18,000. A factory Chevy 350 fastburn crate motor produces 385HP and costs about $4200.00 for another $5,000 - $6,000 you can get 650+ HP plus the thing will last alot longer.
As for the idea of a 500hp 22re I think it sounds cool if you wanted to drag race. I think getting that much power out of a 4cylinder limits the number of miles you can drive it at a time to about 1/4 There are a lot of racing classes where getting 500hp out of a 4cylinder can have a lot of advantages not to mention the weight savings you would have over a heavy V8 but nobody would think it was going to be cheap.
As for the electric I think with current battery technology the weight might be prohibitive. I know there are some drag cars that are electric and to be honest I know very little about them.
Finally as to what abecedarian said I have for a long time wondered why there aren't diesel hybrids or diesel electrics like trains. If a train can move that mass a efficiently as they do what could say a 2cylinder diesel electric move the average family car (sorry off topic but food for thought )
#24
Registered User
I have been hanging around the 22RTE-trucks.com forum and I have seen some tall talk and even mention of using a GT35 turbo, but not much actually happening over 250rwhp on pump gas. The saving grace is that they make at least that much torque as well. I don't know if it's the tuning, low redline, or what, but it seems like the 22R_ loses tolerance for pump gas around that output range.
Here is a very good topic of the 22RE, boosting it, building it, and alot of random information about the 20R head, too. :thumbsup:
http://www.toysport.com/technical%20...tech_notes.htm
The 22RE crank is forged, the bottom ends are bullet proof on these motors.
Last edited by Erik Beeman; 08-06-2009 at 02:57 PM.
#25
Registered User
Thanks didn't know that. I do however know these are bullet proof bottom ends as I was able to drive mine about 50 miles with a very bad rod knock but that was on a 22re with a header so about 120hp-ish so bumping it up to 500+ might over extend the factory parts. If I were looking to build one to that level of HP like I said before I think I would only be driving it about a 1/4 of a mile at a time
#26
Registered User
Thanks didn't know that. I do however know these are bullet proof bottom ends as I was able to drive mine about 50 miles with a very bad rod knock but that was on a 22re with a header so about 120hp-ish so bumping it up to 500+ might over extend the factory parts. If I were looking to build one to that level of HP like I said before I think I would only be driving it about a 1/4 of a mile at a time
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: B-TOWN, ORYGUN
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
where there is money there is parts. If you are serious enough to build a fire breathing 22re and need "go fast" parts there are still a handfull of true speed shops out there that the guys workin on the floor are not just brain dead parts changers. generaly guys in these shops have the know-how, or know a "old friend" who has the tanlent and tooling to build/make custom cranks, cams and other goodies you cant find in a catalogue. where there is a will there is a way. to my oppionion it would be a heck of alot cooler to see a 500+ hp 22RE then a 500hp chevy on the trail or on the street. for me half the point of building a rig is the "shock and awe" factor you get when people see what you have done. I think that with the combination of full aftermarket fuel management system, ignition system, a well massaged Head, a properly put-to-geather bottom end, and some form of forced induction i dont see why 500hp would be hard to attain and still be fairly reliable.
a friend i work with has a air cooled 2300+cc v-dub motor in his sandrail that was dyno'd at like 220hp that hes been running for like 3 years now. he is currently going back through it and is looking to be running around 235-240hp.... so this makes me think that if this is possible from a N/A air cooled VW motor, why not 500 out of a 22re
a friend i work with has a air cooled 2300+cc v-dub motor in his sandrail that was dyno'd at like 220hp that hes been running for like 3 years now. he is currently going back through it and is looking to be running around 235-240hp.... so this makes me think that if this is possible from a N/A air cooled VW motor, why not 500 out of a 22re
#28
Registered User
Thread Starter
1.) The biggest problem here is that some of the parts may not exists.
2.) Finally as to what abecedarian said I have for a long time wondered why there aren't diesel hybrids or diesel electrics like trains. If a train can move that mass a efficiently as they do what could say a 2cylinder diesel electric move the average family car (sorry off topic but food for thought )
2.) Finally as to what abecedarian said I have for a long time wondered why there aren't diesel hybrids or diesel electrics like trains. If a train can move that mass a efficiently as they do what could say a 2cylinder diesel electric move the average family car (sorry off topic but food for thought )
2.) I think the reasoning behind diesel-electric trains is that they are so big and heavy and have such long takeoff distances that a mechanical clutch system would be impractical. The motors allows for gradual speedup without nuking anything. As for a diesel-electric car, remember that the more times energy changes form, the more of it is lost to inefficiencies.
Yes, and this happens on all motors. The solution is Water Methanol injection. Buddy of mine made 567hp on a GT37 in his VR6 and that was on a fully built motor running 102 octane race gas. Blew that motor, and now he is on a stock block (all stock internals), which on top of that it was a junkyard motor, he installed his WMI, same turbo, and made 548hp on 91 octane. Yeah, you can bolt on a GT35 onto these 4 cylinders, but that bugger ain't gonna spool anything until a bagillion RPM. Not being a dick or douche, but have you ever held a GT35 or 37+ in your hands? It's F'n HUGE! I was offered to run my buddies GT37 on my RE when he goes to a 40, but these little (or big I should say) 4 cylinders just arent meant to be boosted that much from a big turbo, I gladly said no!
Here is a very good topic of the 22RE, boosting it, building it, and alot of random information about the 20R head, too. :thumbsup:
http://www.toysport.com/technical%20...tech_notes.htm
Here is a very good topic of the 22RE, boosting it, building it, and alot of random information about the 20R head, too. :thumbsup:
http://www.toysport.com/technical%20...tech_notes.htm
#29
Registered User
#30
Registered User
Thread Starter
Not many would be, IMO. There again, they were factory '83-89 2.3 rods and heavy stock forged TRW pistons. Both have gone as high as 575rwhp, but at a higher rpm, of course. NA engines have the same rods and cast crank, believe it or not.
The difference with a 22R_ is that the block is skirted. That leaves potential for a big girdle tied to the pan rails, which could make the bottom end nearly indestructible. That is, if it's even necessary.
The difference with a 22R_ is that the block is skirted. That leaves potential for a big girdle tied to the pan rails, which could make the bottom end nearly indestructible. That is, if it's even necessary.
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old HOT ROD saying...
Hello
Back in the day....80's I wanted to get at least 375hp out of my 1969 Camaro SS 396 4spd..I had a very tired 396 block told the guy what I wanted..he pointed at the sign...And it said..."Speed cost Money..How Fast you want to go?"...
Almost anything is possible just depends on how much money you go to spend..
Back in the day....80's I wanted to get at least 375hp out of my 1969 Camaro SS 396 4spd..I had a very tired 396 block told the guy what I wanted..he pointed at the sign...And it said..."Speed cost Money..How Fast you want to go?"...
Almost anything is possible just depends on how much money you go to spend..
#34
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
I think with enough money you can reinvent the wheel. If a 500hp 22re was readily availible, the reliablity of it would be suspect for my wheeling/DD use, except if all your trips are 1/4mile. Plus 500hp means more beefy: tranny, t-cases, axles. Really this is a workhorse engine by design that is very reliable.
The reason this isn't such a popular topic among the off road croud is because gears, suspension, and lockers get you over obsticles. Add in lg amounts of Hp and torque and things break. If you don't believe me look at the jeep croud.
Perhaps you should look at stroking the motor with induction, and better head flow. Might get you closer to you target number.
The reason this isn't such a popular topic among the off road croud is because gears, suspension, and lockers get you over obsticles. Add in lg amounts of Hp and torque and things break. If you don't believe me look at the jeep croud.
Perhaps you should look at stroking the motor with induction, and better head flow. Might get you closer to you target number.
#35
Registered User
Thread Starter
Well yeah, a 500hp 2.4L would be awful for a situation where a linear powerband is needed. It probably wouldn't make much over 125hp until the boost came on, at which point the output would increase 400% and very abruptly. I was thinking it would be more useful for something like a desert racer/prerunner type deal, not rock crawling.
Last edited by Dirt Driver; 10-17-2009 at 06:10 PM.
#37
Registered User
Thread Starter
If you want a tough powerband, look at BMW's turbo F1 engines from 1986. They were using a 1.5L four cylinder design(and a production block with some) capable of ~800-1000hp during a race and 1200-1400+hp in qualification. I have seen dyno graphs of restored engines and the power literally quadruples from ~200hp to 800+ in a 2000rpm window.
Last edited by Dirt Driver; 10-17-2009 at 07:24 PM.
#38
Contributing Member
If you want a tough powerband, look at BMW's turbo F1 engines from 1986. They were using a 1.5L four cylinder design(and a production block with some) capable of ~800-1000hp during a race and 1200-1400+hp in qualification. I have seen dyno graphs of restored engines and the power literally quadruples from ~200hp to 800+ in a 2000rpm window.
I don't care how experienced you are, that's a hard jump in HP to handle...
#39
Registered User
there are 2 problems with the 22re getting big horsepower. 1. only 2 valves per cylinder -Can't get the air and fuel in and burnt gasses out fast enough. and 2 they are designed more for torque. the cranks have a long throw so they can't get the high RPMs either. anything over 6,500 is almost impossible. I'll be happy if iIm pushing over 200 hp in my 22rte. 10 lbs boost. intercooled, ct 26 turbo, 370 injectors, doa c270 cam, engnbldr RE head w/os valves, and more. almost $2,000 in parts and machine work alone. I did the assembly myself to keep it as cheap as possible.