GreenPhoenix

I've considered modifying stock jets. At my work we sell lots of small drill bits and reamers. A buddy of mine has a small hobby lathe that would be perfect for small parts like that. Even if I wanted to modify stock jets I would have to pull them out of a carb to use. I haven't found any stock ones to buy to modify. I've seen them come in carb kits but I'm not going to be buying a carb kit for every size jet I want. The injectors I have for this motor are 320cc from a 7mge Supra, stock injectors are 195/200cc. Should keep them under 80% duty.

thefishguy77

iTrader: (1)

A good dirt bike shop should have tons of kehin main jets available for cheep. I have tons of them myself from 10+ years of tuning a 250. Probably not big enough for your purpose but you should be able to get jets there that will work for stock (ish) ones to modify. maybe. I might have miss read his above meaning. only on my first cup of coffee.

GreenPhoenix

If I could find some mikuni or kehin jets that are big enough I might be able to drill and tap the stock jets to accept them. They're cheap and everyone has them. Got a friend that has a bike shop in town he would probably give me some to play with. I'll have to see if there's enough meat on the stock ones to do that. Crazy enough it just might work. Fish, you're a genius.

GreenPhoenix

Ok, so its been a while since I've been on here. I've had alot going on the last month or so and haven't had time to finish up this project. Finally got all the parts and assembled the top end to check p-v and p-h clearance. Plenty of p-v clearance, the valves never even touched the wad of clay I put in slightly mounded above the valve relief in the piston. When I torqued the cam retainer bolts 3 of them got to about 10ft-lbs and the threads gave out so when I disassembled after checking clearances I took it back to my machine shop and had all the remaining threads heli-coiled. Long story short I eventually got everything in line and put it together, now I just have to find time to pull my old motor and put this one in. I bought an Innovative AFR meter so I can check my mixture to make sure its not leaning out. I'd like to see something between 0.7-0.85 lambda through most of the range. Might be putting the motor in and having it running this weekend.

Dirt Driver

Why such a rich lambda target? So there is room to lean it out?

GreenPhoenix

That, and from what I've gathered max power is made between .72-.78 @WOT. I've also been told its nearly impossible to run it too rich (within reason). I may have to put in an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to help tune it in. Just have to see what it does.

GreenPhoenix

Fired it up this weekend. Started right up, held it around 2000rpm to bring it up to temp, set the timing, set the idle. I ran it between about 1500-2500 after I set everything to get the engine hot. I gauged the engine being hot by the valve cover being hot enough I almost didn't want to touch it. Once hot I shut it down and pulled the valve cover and set the valves. After that I decided there was enough daylight to run up and down the yard a few times to seat the rings. I began making runs in 2nd gear gently rolling into the throttle working up to about 3k and then letting the engine brake the truck. After a few runs like that I increased my rpm by 500, put a little more lead in my foot and doubled the number of runs. After the 3500rpm runs there was a noticeable difference in the sound and responsiveness of the motor. I pulled it back in the shop and re-checked the valves. The next day after letting it cool down overnight I checked/re-torqued the head bolts, none of them moved very much (if at all). Somewhere I wrote down what it was running for mixtures but I can't seem to find my note, it was somewhere around .98-1.02 at idle and between .73-.82 throughout most of the range when driving it around. I drove it around some more the next day just making sure I kept it below 4k and kept the tires from spinning. I've heard a consistant load on the rings and then allowing the engine to slow you back down is the best way to seat rings, and as I said after about an hour of diving like that there was a considerable distance in the way the engine sounded and ran. Feels crisp and responsive, absolutely no lag between my foot going down and the engine coming up.

Dirt Driver

This is the break-in procedure I use unless the rings come with instructions that say otherwise:

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceTi..._procedure.htm

GreenPhoenix

Definitly sounds familiar, I didn't accelerate at full throttle like it says to do, I just accelerated as fast as I could without spinning the tires on the grass/dirt patches. Another thing I wanted to point out is that I lightened my flywheel from about 24lbs to about 20lbs (bathroom scale) and the engine revs up much faster and feels much more responsive when you get on the throttle, nothing unexpected there, but it is a noticeable difference. Could just be the conference between my old worn out motor and new motor but it seems much more rev-happy.

GreenPhoenix

IF YOU EVER DO ANYTHING WITH YOUR FLYWHEEL I WOULD SUGGEST DOING A COUPLE THINGS:

1. BUY ARP BOLTS
2. USE LOC-TITE AS DIRECTED BY ARP

I re-used the stock bolts and they broke. Spun the flywheel on the crank enough to wear into the flywheel (ruining the flywheel) and last down some extra material on the crank. I had to pull my crank to have the hub turned down so a flywheel would fit back on it. Since I ruined the flywheel I had to turn down another one so I decided to take a little more off this time. The new flywheel weighs just over 16.5 lbs, down from just under 24 lbs (approx. 30% reduction). Had the machine shop re-balance and interestingly enough the flywheel was dead on so he ended up taking some out of the crank meaning that originally he balanced it as an assembly and not the crank and flywheel individually. Not sure if that could have been part of the problem with the bolts or not. I feel that the crank and flywheel on an inline-4 should be neutral balanced individually and as such will be balanced a an assembly. This also eliminates problems later if you want to change flywheels. Not a fun week.

5runner

awesome man sounds like it is gonna be a best would love to see some pics or a video once it is all back together

crispy

Are you running this in a mini stock dirt track class? And it's a truck not a car? I'm running an 82 Celica GT coupe mini stock dirt car and I just spun a bearing last night. I would suggest on your engine to run a carb set-up, because that ECU doesn't have any programming for E85 & I am afraid in the long run your going to burn up some pistons or valves. I know for my class we don't have to use the stock carb, we can use a Holley 350cfm or 500cfm 2BBL. I asked to be allowed to use a Weber cause it's way easier to put a Weber on a Yota then a Holley. I'm actually tunning a 38synchro EMPI carb & it woke my engine up something serious. It was a stock 22r.

I have 2 22R engines & 1 20R engine. I am rebuilding 1 of the 22R blocks, just bearings & rings, no modifications to bottom end. Then I am putting the 20R head & intake on it with the 38 carb & the 430/270 EPN cam with adjustable camshaft gear & a new header. Then I will rebuild the other 22R & bore it .040 over then put the 20R head on with some oversize valves from EPN.

GreenPhoenix

I was a little concerned about burning valves/melting pistons which was part of the reason for going to such big injectors (200cc - 320cc) and THE reason I bought an A/F meter. A lean motor runs sharp down low and power tends to taper off quickly when you get to higher rpm, very noticeable if you've ever tuned 2-stroke motors. This thing runs hard coming out of the corners and keeps pulling until you run out of straight-away. It literally made the track seem smaller.

crispy

What kind of A/F meter you have? Just a regular A/F gauge like from Autometer with the lights bouncing back & forth from green to red? If so they aren't very good for any type of tuning. You need a wideband oxygen sensor gauge set-up. If you have one thats great. But like someone said earlier that the computer is running 1970s technology. And if you can't use a type of up to date aftermarket AFM system your not going to get everything you can out of that motor. And it's a nicely built powerplant I do say.

I would suggest using a 20R intake & a large Weber like a 42 or 44 synchro, but if Webers are illegal then a modified Holley 500cfm 2bbl will flow plenty of fuel & air for the powerplant you have made.
Just for reference I'm a tech at a Mopar dealership, we aquired Toyota a couple of years ago, but we don't cross train to work on the other makes we sell. We sell Yotas, Jeeps, Dodge, Ram, Chrysler, Chevy & Scions. I'm just learning Yota tech this year thru my dirt car & talkign to our Yota techs. Everyone I talk to at the track says the Yotas are hard to beat once you get them built & tuned & set-up right. Thats why I am running one as well as I bought it for $300 & I didn't want to run a Stang like everyone else.

GreenPhoenix

Its an Innovative Motorsports wideband, it came with a 4-wire Bosch O2 sensor. I have it programmed to output Lambda on the gauge. It has the "swing meter" around the outside as well as a digital number readout in the middle. Seems to be a decent unit. I totally agree that I could get more out of it with a 500cfm Holley but the class is limited to "Stock" components and something that obvious would be easy to spot. So basically I would be using an Aisin off a 22r which I have a couple of as well as manifolds and carb dizzy. I'm seriously considering some dyno time this winter I'm really curious about what kind of power I'm making with basically stock fuel injection. Megasquirt or something similar would be sweet I'm just not sure I could pass it off as stock. The 20r has round ports and uses a smaller carb, the intake I believe would bolt up to a 22r or re head but not sure there would be any gain. I haven't looked real close at a 20r head but alot of people say they flow better than the 22r/re heads. I'm more attracted to the later r/re head for their quench design. Yes you have to get air and fuel into the chamber but it has to burn once it gets there. I don't have any definitive testing to prove one way or the other, but in my opinion I favor the later heads, milled for compression with a lighter flat top piston. Flatter, smaller chamber with little to no obstruction to the flame front and lots of mixture motion due to the quench design. That's my thoughts on that anyway.

crispy

Thats weird that you can't run a Holley 2bbl. Most mini stock classes allow stock carbs or FI & normally allow the Holley 350 or 500 as the only aftermarket carbs allowed. And your right the 20R intake is round & 22R is square, the exhuast side is the same. I have my 20R exhuast on my 22R head right now. The 20R intake does flow better though for carb set-ups, cause the runners are bigger & each cylinder has it's own runner from the carb to head. The 22R intake doesn't split the runners until halfway to the head & is smaller meaning more restrictive.

The 20R head on the 22R block is the best set-up for a carb set-up. If your staying "stock like" the 20R head & intake with the 22R carb is the trick. But the 20R head instantly bumps compression ratio on the 22R block. The 22R head is swirl induction for emissions & the 20R is open combustion chamber. And the 20r combustion chamber is smaller.

I assume you know stoich for the E85 is 9.6:1 not 14.7:1 like regular gas. Not sure if that old AFM system can understand that.

GreenPhoenix

The 20r combustion chamber is only smaller if you're talking about the tall deck, dome piston, 22r motors. If it is a later flat top motor 22r or 22re the chambers are much smaller than the 20r. The difference between the 20r head and early 22r head I believe is 2cc (20r=78cc, 22r=80cc) not a huge difference but every little bit helps. Early motors still only ran between 8.5-9:1 compression, late 22re motors are 9.4:1 stock, not sure about late 22r's but I believe it is the same. O2 sensors measure Lambda, which is "1.0" at stoich. I'm running between .75-.85 most of the time which is on the rich side but about right for making power with e85. The ecu doesn't know or even care what fuel it is burning as long as it thinks it is giving itself the right amount of fuel for the amount of air that is coming in. Its all relative to the fuel, if there was some magic fuel that ran at 20:1 A/F you would have to run much smaller than stock injectors or it would run horribly rich or just plain flood itself out. It would be impossible to run e85 on stock injectors and expect it to run even close to correct ratios, you would absolutely melt down a motor, and in a hurry. It requires more fuel, the computer doesn't know how big the injectors are, so size the injectors to the fuel and allow it to carry on; business as usual. Its really not that different from putting bigger jets in a carb for the same reasons. There is a certain amount of air flowing through the carb to cause a certain pressure drop to pull fuel from the bowl, an amount of fuel based on the size of the jets. You don't have to redesign the venturies for it to run right you just have to make sure it gets the right amount of fuel. But instead of venturies we have that stupid flapper door that tells the computer how much air is coming through, which tells the injectors to fire for a certain amount of time. The O2 says wether or not it is getting the proper amount of fuel and the computer adjusts accordingly. Sorry to be so long winded but it seems like people have this thing in their head that the computer doesn't know what its doing half the time. Unhook your battery for 5-10min sometime and when you start it up again for the first time listen to it re-learning idle. Its learning and thinking, its not a rigid thing.

crispy

All I'm saying & others as well I think, is that you spent a lot of money to build an engine for a "stock" class & then running an ancient out of date ECU fuel injection. And as I recall how the older ECU fuel injection systems worked, it can't make adjustments to fuel injector pulse width to increase or decrease how much fuel it delivers. It is preset for a certain amount & it uses the oxygen sensor to set a check engine light if theres a problem & then puts the car in fail safe mode. It's not like new cars that actually use mass air flow meters & air intake temp sensors & upstream & downstream O2 sensors to control air fuel ratio. That old computer is not learning & thinking, it's preprogrammed & what ya got is what ya got. It uses the oxygen sensor to set a check engine light if it see's the wrong reading for a set period of time.

GreenPhoenix

http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplema...ic=1767.0;wap2

http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplema...11683#msg11683

http://www.well.com/user/mosk/Vfsignal.htm

I've also read this in a Snap-On scantool manual which states that the information was taken from the Toyota FSM.

It has preset tables that it can add or subtract from. If you need visuals I'll see what I can do.

I've supported my end of the argument. Show me something to support your argument. Either one of us is wrong or we're both partially right. Either way we will learn something.

Dirt Driver

The first generation of digital EFI controllers are far more sophisticated than you realize. As rudimentary as the 22R-E ECU seems, it does learn, it does have memory, it does monitor intake air temp, coolant temp, and mass airflow, it does trim the mixture based on O2 feedback, it does thousands of calculations per second, and it was doing that more than 30 years ago. The authority it has is limited in software, not hardware, because it was designed for a very specific application.