wrenchmonster

No power can be attributable to many other conditions besides a timing belt being off a tooth. In my experience, when setting up a timing belt, most techs really take their time and double check their work, making sure all the marks line up before buttoning everything up. I'm not sure how advanced Toyotas engine control management was at that time, but would an advance of 25 degrees throw any codes? Others please chime in here.

It would be far more likely in my opinion, for something else to be wrong. You mentioned that the plugs, cap and rotor had been replaced. Are the plugs the correct type? Were they gapped properly?

I would personally put the engine on a scope and look at the primary and secondary ignition patterns for more information. I'd also wonder about the condition of your catalytic converter, and test the back pressure of the exhaust.

My point it that I'd certainly rule out other things before going after the timing belt.

taikowaza

wrenchmonster-
thanks a lot for your advice.. I'm going to pick up the runner today. I won't let them do any more work.
I noticed that you are in washington state- are you anywhere near Seattle?
that's where I am having this "work" done.
the plugs are good. brand new magnaflow cat, new muffler, new afm. new plugs, cap and wires. it might very well be a timing issue. I won't have it done there however.
I learned a big lesson this week. even though I thought that bringing in an almost perfect 4runner would be a good experience, just a quick professional opinion and advice...what I have learned is to consider the dealership a trap.
I will look elsewhere from now on. thanks a lot everyone for all your help.
T

taikowaza

here's the latest. no thanks.

To go in and check the cam timing, it is just like replacing the timing belt. Cost to do so is $418.00 plus tax.

wrenchmonster

Taikowaza, no problem man. I wouldn't say all dealers are bad, heck I work for one (GM), and we have some of the best techs in town.

I am actually in Seattle, but I don't live here. In fact I'm only here for another 2 weeks hopefully, then back home to the Yakima Valley. I'd contact WATRD. He knows of some good people here in the Seattle area who can help you. He'd be a good guy to contact anyway, a super nice guy and very knowledgeable.

$418 is just a little steep, cough. Like I said, I'd put it on a scope. Unfortunately most techs don't know the first thing about interpreting the patterns, so they don't use them. I was fortunate enough to have an old timer teach me early on in my education. With a scope a good tech can find a bad coil, bad plugs or wires, mechanical problems, weak cylinders, etc. It only takes a few minutes to hook up also.

Eliminate the easy stuff before going after the timing belt. I don't know why the dealer is being so hard headed about the situation. Good luck.

midiwall

Very much agreed, and we all have to keep in focus here that the ONLY reason Taiko took the truck in at all was that "it was stumbling just a bit sometimes".

Air tube torn? Fine, replace the air tube. But, like you said Taiko, don't let them experiment on the truck.

If the timing was set to +25, and they reset it to spec at +10, that could very much be the cause of the "new" lack of power. Did they reset the timing back to +25 and note if the power came back? I bet not, 'cause it's not by-the-book.

Is that possibly covering up something else? Maybe, and the previous owner found that advancing the timing by 15 degrees "helped". But ya' know what Mr. Toyota of Seattle??? The customer was 99% happy with his truck when he brought it in! WTF?


See if you can get them to put the timing back to +25, pay for the air tube, thank them for the rental, then get the truck out of there.

BRossman

Well It looks like the Truck will be coming to me to help straighten things out. I'll have it for the next two weeks while Taikowza is in Japan. I'll get to the bottom of this starting next monday and hopefully provide some insight to what is really going on.

taikowaza

midiwall- those were words of wisdom.
I had them put the timing back to 25degrees before top dead center.
thanked them for the free rental.
paid $163 (99 for the part. 1/2 hour labor+tax)
got out.

they weren't happy with me, I could tell.
But I can't believe that I escaped relatively unscathed.
Driving home the 'runner is FINE. no problems.
seems exactly the same as before.
NO DIFFERENCE. still runs strong. just still a little stumble.
what is this about 'no power'????? must have been when the timing got turned to 10degrees btdc.
I do not know what to expect.

Luckily I have a friend who is going to work on it. He told me that a good mechanic can have the top off and change timing in less than an hour. and I was going to get charged for 4 hours.

I am almost incredulous. unbelievable. how can dealers get away with kind of robbery? that really is what it is. I mean, total, absolute, bull&*&^ robbery. charging 4 hours at $100/hour for a job that can take 1 hour? how did this happen? were car dealerships always this way? was there an evolution or something, that they changed into this kind of moneypit, black hole?

wow. at the very least, thanks to your advice, I am not out BIG BUCKS.
what a week.

only a couple of good things came out of this.
1) learned never to go back there.
2) learned that there are cool dudes on yotatech
3) learned there MAY have been a crack in my intake hose.
4) learned about the ISR mod so I can replace this brand new part in a few weeks.

that's about it!!!!!!

I think I will lay low for a while.
anyways, I am going to japan soon. it will be good to rest, drink sake and eat sushi.
I will take a look at the list of requests again and PM those guys to see if they are still interested in the stuff.
take a breather from this dealer fiasco, and bask in the joy of a japanese toyota dealership. they bow to you when you enter the shop. you get coffee and snacks. they present you with catalogues and magazines to keep and when you order something they wrap it in beautiful ricepaper (depends on the dealer), and present it to you, and all of them bow all the way you are walking out the door.
and when you get gas (fill'er up...) you gotta see that to believe it. I will film a 'fill up. you will love it.

by the way- kudos for brossman. he did my headers/idler arm/belts, many other mods, and will do suspension and get to the bottom of this timing issue. if you are in seattle/puget sound contact him. knows his stuff.

midiwall

Just to put a 1/2 point up for the dealer...

All of them work by a costing book that spells out the price of the part(s) and the labor for any specific job. It's done this way to keep things "fair" (which is a relative term in this case) across dealers and the like.

In the case of a timing belt change, there will be a flat labor/time charge for pulling the front cover, then an add-in for swapping the belt, another add-in for the water pump, another for the tensioners. The dealer has the option to override these fees, or to eliminate them, but that's their business (read: profit margin) that they're messing with, so they rarely do.

Yes, it's possible to pull that front cover pretty fast, but it's also easy to get hung up and spend an hour freeing a rusty crank bolt. It happend to me & my friend when we did mine - and we had EVERY tool you could want, including a full lift.


The dealer makes more money in the service department than anywhere else on the property. THAT's their bread & butter. Sure, sell the cars at "invoice", but between the kickbacks from the manufacturers and the $200 1,000 mile first inspection, they're making a bundle.


Have fun in Japan!


BRossman... where are you in the area? Are you an independent?

^VooDoo^

Had all same problems, My TB connector is old and crispy, Had to use electrical tape wrapping to seal it all, In the end I just did the ISR mod using same airbox $40.

The rough idle, Dirty TB with TPS is bad or needs setting, Dealers will not even look at that as being a problem, I suggest getting you ohm meter out and check it.
After that was done all is fine.

Chuki

You seem to have quite a few mods done to your runner? Do you have stock cams in it?

I would think being slightly off on your timing belt would be hard to correct by advancing the timing.

Oh well, good thing you got it out of there.

lumpy1

you may also want to check your pcv valve and the hose for leaks. i have seen it before and also if the wrong pcv vlave is installed it can cause a rough idle

05prerunner

that really sucks man but its also why i stick to the "if it aint broke dont try to fix it" saying. if it ran good then i wouldnt even mess with it but i do hope you get it worked out.

Babypig

try cleaning the IAC valve on the throttle body. Took care of my stumble altogether

taikowaza

Well, while I have been in Japan the 'runner has been worked on by the competent hands of brossman.
now I have a report and I would like to ask you for your advice-
here is the news.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And finally your runability issue. I verified that your ignition timing is infact at 25 degrees BTDC (spec is 10 BTDC) and at both 25 and 10 degrees there is a misfire at idle when the vehicle is at full operating temperature. I pulled the timing belt cover and verified that the mechanical time is infact correct. The belt is in relatively good shape and the water pump is not leaking. Unfortunately though I think I found your runability issue. Behind the timing cover on your passanger side cylinder head I found a seep from the head gasket. It is not large, but I think what is occuring is that seep is getting into your number 1 cylinder causing the misfire. The advancement of timing is masking how badly this cylinder is misfiring. I did not have time to do a compression or cylinder leakdown test (I can still do them if you like) due to time constraints, but I am fairly certain that is the culprit. The truck can still be driven just fine like this or you can opt to do the gaskets or even throw a rebuilt longblock into the truck. If it is infact a headgasket then time will only tell how long it will last it could be months or a year or two before it finally pops".
-------------------------------------------------------------

I am not exactly sure what I should do. I have already done a lot to this runner, headers, injectors, I will never sell it and want to keep using it indefinitely as a project/offroad vehicle. I want to go for long-lasting high performance...
if I opt for the gaskets, what is the best source for required parts/
as for a rebuilt longblock what does this entail.
what is the SOP for the best choice for this procedure
what kind of time/$ am I talking about here, which threads,
confusedly yet openmindedly yours-
T

TNRabbit

Dude, you need to get the head gasket fixed or you're in for long-term problems! This is a GREAT source for parts and are renowned for a terrific reputation for quality. You can get a full gasket set with seals for $139. Give them a call and check their web site:
http://www.engnbldr.com/ToyotaHotLicks.htm

taikowaza

would you rather replace the headgasket or throw in a rebuilt longblock?
what are advantages and disadvantages to each
thanks. also- cost factors
T

wrenchmonster

That's kind of a loaded question. No one can give you an exact cost analysis... you'll have to get quotes to be accurate. By the way.... good for you to find a tech that actually diagnosed the problem rather than guessing. Your new tech sounds like he is much better and moving forward in a logical manner.

First of all.... has your rig gone under the HG recall? If it has not, that answers your question right there imo. Let Toyota fix it and pay for it. Maybe take it to a different dealer though, lol.

Headgasket? Well, the advantage would probably be cost savings overall. The downside would be that you still have a 3.0 and your bottom end would still be X number of miles old. 3.0 bottom ends are pretty stout, but nothing is invincible.

Longblock? The advantage would be a whole new motor with a warranty. Disagvantages would be cost (probably less in labor costs, but more to purchase the LB) and the fact that you still have a 3.0. Many people will tell you to put in a 3.4 and drop the 3.0 all together.... a great advantage indeed, but also the most expensive option. Alternatively, you may be able to get a decent used 3.0 for cheap.

It really depends on your situation, and how much money you have, and what you are willing to live without. Is this rig your daily driver? Or can you sit on it for 6 months while you are saving some money? If you did the HG recall, how long ago was that? Would you have a bottom end that has only 50K miles? I'm just thinking out load here.

tlrider

Long block is $$$. If you're a competent mechanic, your best bet is to rebuild one... the problem is that it usually takes a little bit, and if the rig is your daily driver, that might not be an option. Your best bet is to do the same thing I'm doing... Pick up a motor off of craigslist for about $200 and slowly rebuild it, while you keep driving your other truck, so then all you have to do, is remove your old engine, and toss in the new one. I picked up my 3vze for $200, and after gaskets, bearing, rings, etc.. i should have about $500 for a like new motor... versus picking up a long block for $950+ and then still having to buy gaskets etc.

tabb

In order for oil to cause a misfire, it must foul the spark plug. Just becaue it's leaking outside the engine doesn't mean it's leaking inside the cylinder. The same goes for coolant. Before you jump the gun and rebuild/replace your engine, get a comp test done, have a look at your plugs, in short get it properly diagnosed through actual testing and not just best guess. There are many things that can cause a misfire...vacuum leaks, low compression, bad injector, bad spark, timing, plugged exhaust, bad cam.........

This is not meant as a put down to Brossman. All due respect and props to Brossman for spending the time to help you out.

taikowaza

thanks tabb, wrenchmonster, tlrider and TNrabbit
your advice is really good.
brossman rocks- he works 80hours+a week at a major dealership and still finds time to do my thorley headers, ome suspension and pull the timing-
kudos to that cat!

I don't think that I am going to go with a longblock. after this trip out East (way east!) I need to get the 'runner back in action as soon as I can. it's my daily driver as well as my camping getaway car.

I like the thought of slowly rebuilding a 3vze- however my engine though seems to be in great shape, with the engine rebuilt at 190,000 by the previous owner. (now, at 230,000). high mileage, but the body and interior is in fantastic shape and I'd like to keep this vehicle indefinitely. This new information re. rebuilding and high miles might change the equation a bit.

Wat do you think about buying the headgasket kit, or master engine rebuilt kit from TNRabbit's link post?

tabb I hear you that there are a lot of other possibilities for this problem.
I really really (perhaps blindly!)want to belive that everything else has checked out tho- new sparks, new cap/rotor, injectors freshly hydrocleaned, new exhaust!
time is kind of the essence too, with a return from an extended trip you can imagine that there are a lot of reasons why I need my truck.
I think I will continue to trust the bottom end...and next time, replace the engine? after buying 3.0 3vze headers I am loath to put in a 3.4 and have those headers unused. what would you think of any of these kits?
TOYOTA PICKUP/4 RUNNER/ T-100
V-6 3VZE SOHC 3.0L
88-95
P950 Piston Set std,.020,.040
108.00

12.00 S&H
PR950 Ring Set (moly required)
std,.020,.040
46.00

8.00 S&H
******FGS9500 Full Gasket Set with seals 130.00 9.00 S&H*********
HGS 950 Valve grind gaskets with seals 104.00 9.00 S&H
OP950 Oil Pump 93.00 9.00 S&H
FBS Full Bearing Kit 75.00 8.00 S&H
B240(TB950A) Timing Belt 93-95 35.00 8.00 S&H
B154(TB950) Timing Belt 87-92 30.00 8.00 S&H
S&H additional


or, woudl you go with this ****** MASTER ENGINE KIT
$388.00
S&H 24.00 Continental USA
Master engine kit includes: Pistons, rings, rod bearings, main bearings, thrust washer, oil pump, full gasket kit, full bronze deep dish freeze plug set, (new) head bolts, rear main sleeve-n-seal, and timing belt by year of application.

PS. here is the email that I got from the previous owner.
"Regarding the truck, I had the
engine rebuilt and the timing belt change around
190,000 mile. I think you should be good until
250k-260k. For timing belt, it's normally around 80k
between every change. If there's anything else you
need, let me know".