PlugItIn

Yes, the bearings could be in great condition and if you run antifreeze/water mixed with your oil through the oiling system, it cause the pressure to be too low and not protect your engine and will destroy your bearings and crank (trust me, PO of my truck destroyed the bearings and the crank due to this)

jungle_runner

i can't believe what i just saw ... i was rotating the crank, and GREEN!!! fluid dripped off one of the counter weights! WTF?!? LOL!!

this probably means that the head gasket needs to be replaced right? what's weird though is that i didn't see any when i first pulled the oil pan ... but after a few days left open, with oil slowly dripping off, i turn the crank and see green fluid ... grrr

anyhow, i bought all the bearings, main and crank, and assembly lube ($61.94), but now i think i need to go back for a head gasket. the guy at autozone said that he's replaced a head gasket a few times without milling the head, would you guys say that's ok?

great debates, i'm learning a lot, thanks

PlugItIn

yes...absolutely. Are you sure your timing chain cover did not have a hole worn into it? This would cause antifreeze in the oil...since right behind where the chain rides the guide is a coolant passage. This is what happened to the original engine in my truck and as I stated earlier, it destroyed it. If you are sure the timing cover is intact and not leaking then it most likely is your HG. The only reason a head would need to be shaved is if the engine was overheated badly and warped the head. As long as your engine did not overheat, you will be fine.

jungle_runner

it did over heat once, for just a little ... the needle shot up to the red and i pulled over immediately ... fluid was escaping from the radiator cap ...

yes, i'm sure there's no hole in timing cover

jungle_runner

i'm taking that as a yes i should absolutely replace the head gasket and i guess i should get the head milled, even though it overheated for just a little bit

(i'm totally new with working on engines, please don't berate me too much)

thanks again

PlugItIn

well...i wouldn't say you NEED to get the head shaved just yet. You should technically, but i would pull the head off and flip it upside down and use a straight-edge to check to see how bad the head actually is. You should be able to tell once you pull the head off if the head gasket was the culprit. I'm guessing it is because the timing cover is good. Good job so far, this is quite the task for someone just learning. I'm only 19 and have been working on cars my whole life, still learning new things each and every day though.

Karlton

Your head might be just fine, jungle_runner. I would check around for a reputable machine shop who can advise you as to whether it is necessary to mill your head or not.

If you are going so far as to pull the head you might consider pulling the whole motor. When my rod bearing went bad I rented an engine hoist ($25 + tax) and pulled the motor. A bought cheap motor stand ($59). It seemed daunting at first, but once I got going it was pretty easy. A couple of beers helps build confidence in these matters.

I'm not a mechanic but I could not see paying a mechanic more money than my old truck is worth. My truck is not my daily driver, so I read alot of stuff on the internet including this fine forum.

I took the block with the crank still in it, my head, and my rods and pistons to a local machine shop to have them checked out. While my rod journals on the crank needed regrinding, and my rods needed resizing, neither my head or my block required any milling or decking. My cylinders did not even require boring. I did have the guy clean the head, check it for cracks, check the straightness of camshaft guides, and do a valve job. Oh, and the guy cleaned and checked my pistons, and pressed new wrist pin bushings into the rods and reattached the pistons for me. I think all told the total was around $435.

Anyway, putting the motor together on a stand is so easy it's fun. You can turn it upside down and sideways and have all the room you need to torque everything with a big torque wrench.

Good luck!

jungle_runner

PlugItIn, thank you very much for the encouragement, much appreciated!

Karlton, thank you for sharing your experience with pulling the engine. That definitely sounds like the way to go and when I have my own garage and space I will definitely go that route. I'm two hours away from my house in the mountains (which has no garage, a 30 degree inclined driveway, and one auto-parts store). I got stuck at my parent's house in the city. At least I'm at my parent's house and I can borrow a car to get to the multiple parts stores and machine shops in the LA area. I've been stuck here for 2 weeks working on this! But it's good though because I would have never spent this much time with the fam, I usually only stay a few days.

I am feeling more confident since I did the timing chain and got everything back running again, then fixed the TPS by cleaning with electrical contact cleaner. Then I felt even more confident after a successful helicoil to fix a striped exhaust manifold stud. And now that I've been messing around with the crank and rods, I'm feeling like "what the heck" ... might as well go for it all and pull the head too. And it's because of all of your comments, directions, suggestions and encouragement here on yota-tech that I was able to attempt all this stuff and avoid making costly mistakes. Thanks again!

yeah, total

PlugItIn

i wouldn't pull the engine to do this...your already halfway there with getting the bearings done. Pulling the head isn't that big of a deal...its fairly simple actually

grant526

I've done the head gasket in the truck. It's not bad, compared to what you've done so far!!

But when I realized we needed to do the bottom end too, I made the call to pull it!!!
I didn't know you can some how manage to replace the bottom bearings that way with then engine and tranny still attached to eachother. . . But it was worth pulling.

You're far enough into the project though that I wouldn't bother pulling it!

Also, I've been reading and following YotaTech for a couple years now and it's definitely influenced my decisions on what I'm willing and able to do. But I've also been helping my buddies out with their race cars too, so I have been able to see things done that i never would have thought I would do, like pulling an engine. Let alone Completely rebuilding one on my own!!

Keep up the good work!! And keep up the good posts and questions! : )
You'll be pleased with the out come!

jungle_runner

the top of the piston and the bottom of the head around cylinder 4 have built-up metal, all chewed and mangled ... at first i though a valve was sticking open, but they have no marks on them ... so now i'm guessing that a piston ring broke and got pushed into the chamber ... does that sound right? i will check the piston tomorrow

so yes, the head will definitely need some machining, the piston will need either machining or need to be replaced ... anything else i should do?







so getting the head off actually wasn't too bad, i decide to "attack" the job and see how fast it could get done ... i left the intake and exhaust manifold on ... took about 2.5 hours with the last hour, i swear, just trying to get at an electrical plug under the intake and at the banjo bolt on the fuel filter ... fuel filter crumpled and leaked fuel before the bolt would give, i have a new one that i've been planing to install, so it's cool



thanks again, i'm starting to enjoy all this, and it feels great to be able to do it yourself

PlugItIn

did you by chance get to do a compression test on her? A little trick to make sure your valves are nice and sealed is to flip the head upside down and fill the combustion chambers on the head up with water (with all valves closed) wait a day or so and see if any leaked out. That HG doesn't look bad to me (i still could be bad) usually when they go theirs noticeable burns/marks around the metal ring that seals the cylinder. Yours doesn't appear to have that...and something i just thought of...did you ever use that stop leak stuff in this engine, or maybe the PO if you know? Good job so far...pull that #4 piston and take a look at the rings and keep us posted.

jungle_runner

Head is fine??? Maybe the photos aren't that clear ... there is about an eighth of an inch of mangled, built-up metal material smashed into the head and piston face ... there is one tiny shard that looks like a little spear, impelled into the face of the cylinder head, it just missed the valves ... I definitely need to get the head machined and the piston machined or replaced.

So basically, a piece of metal got into the cylinder and was being pounded to shreds by the piston ... I'm going out to check the piston rings now, but I can't think of anywhere else the metal could come from.

I didn't do a compression test, I would have to buy that kit, out of the budget right now. But I want one, I'll get one soon. That's a good trick to test the valves with water, I'll try that. Thanks

jungle_runner

Called the nearest machine shop ... $150 for the resurface and valve job, another $20 to re-contour the dome area where the valves are seated. I have to replace the piston.

PlugItIn

no no, the head gasket...but it probably was going bad because of that metal in the cylinder

jungle_runner

oops, you did said HG, duh ... yeah, the HG was in ok shape overall, but it's got some metal shards in it and the back right corner was weak and broke off when I lifted head

jungle_runner

The rings were all there for piston 4, piston 1 has a lot of carbon build-up, but piston 4 has metal build-up!

Since the rings are all there, I'm thinking the metal is just from the piston knocking the head. And since my bearings were in pretty good shape, does this mean my crank shaft may be out of wack?!?!

Karlton

My first reaction to the photos was the stop-leak goop as observed by Plugitin. But the photos are fuzzy.

I would not think that the piston slapping the head would create spear-like shards of metal bits. It seems more likely that something got in there somehow ... like down the spark plug hole? I don't know how else something would get in there. Is it conceivable something could have got in there thru the intake manifold and gotten past the intake valve without ruining the valve?

Maybe that "mechanic" that did your timing chain wrong left his calling card in cylinder #4!

The photo of the #4 piston looks like it had a few deep semi-circular gouges ... maybe indicators of the metal particles original form?

If it IS a buildup of broken cylinder head particles, then be sure the machine shop checks your head for cracks ... you had green stuff dripping down through cylinder #4 prior to removing the head, right?

Check your cylinders for scoring, hopefully you won't need to have them bored.

Karlton

Oh, another thought ... you could use a magnet to see if the metal particles are comprised of steel or aluminum.

jungle_runner

I just got back from Head Exchange. One of the guys there, Ray, thought that the valve seat might have fallen in, so he quickly removed the valves to check, but it was good. So he said that it looks like something got in through the intake.

After inspecting the head, he recommend a new one, because it was beginning to corrode and let coolant into the cylinder. $280 for a new one, with valves adjusted, ready to go. It would have been $150 to service the old one; I figured that $130 more is nothing for a nice, brand new head. He says he's got a 22re with 450,000 miles on it!

I asked him if the crank may be out of alignment since the piston was knocking the head. He said that the cranks can take a beating, and that the rod or piston would go first, but to replace all my bearings. And also to check the cylinder wall for scoring.

New head will be ready to pick up on Monday
In the mean time, I'll get all the bearings replaced, a new piston, and put the oil pan back on. This has been a great experience, I've been waiting for this actually; to really get in and start understanding stuff, but I didn't expect it this soon and at such a fast pace. Thanks again for the comments, keep 'em coming.

Karlton, LOL @ calling card left in cylinder #4!

PS - NOOB ALERT!!
Do not think that just because no fuel is leaking from the lines at any given point of time, that it will not start gushing out later on. Just a 10 degree change in ambient temperature will increase the pressure in the gas tank enough to cause fuel to gush out of the open lines! Cap the lines AND unscrew the gas cap to allow pressure to release.