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Hey how everybody doing! I got a 1987 toyota pickup 22R 2.4 L that my wife got me for $150.00 and it ran great and I
can't complain at all just got my oil change done front wheel alignment done and tires put on drove it for a week then after
that the truck didn't want to crank are start and my battery charge light came on so I went and brought a alternator still on then I
brought a new starter still nothing then I brought a brand new battery still nothing then I decided to use my test light to test the wire
on my starter I disconnect it from the starter the black and white wire with a connector on the end I'm not getting power through that wire and when I test the starter relay I use a test light to touch the prongs and I get no power, I thought if the relay is grounded to the fender wall I should get power through the prongs if the relay is good or should the relay should be power by the battery the black and white wire is the problem I was thinking about replacing my fuse box under the hood and ignition switch now will that engage the starter relay and the relay
engage the starter because I did the whole charging system couple days ago and It's going be brand new once I found the problem
Welcome to Yotatech but...
It's hard to read your post.
Buy a period and a comma first
Then a volt-meter, then post pictures of what you are working on. It's hard to see words, especially without punctuation.
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 11-21-2019 at 10:46 PM.
When cold, it takes 3 or 4 clicks of the key to the start position for the starter motor to engergize/spin and start the truck. I can hear a heavy click, I think its the high-current relay on the starter not making good connection, but I'm not sure. When the engine is really cold, like 0F, it takes six clicks for the starter to engergize/spin. When the engine is warm from running, it works first time every time.
So reading through this thread, its hard to determine if I have a wiring fault running 12amps through 28 year old ignition switch contacts not capable of that much current. That high current relay on top of the starter takes some 12 amps to energize and pull the plunger forward. As that plunger moves forward, a lever and a fork drive the starter gear rearward and engage the gear to the flywheel. At the end of the plunger's travel, it smacks a piece of copper across two bolt-heads and allows a couple hundred amps of current to energize the starter motor and crank the engine. If that high-current relay on top of the starter does not get enough voltage, for example from corroded connections and contacts in the ignition switch, the plunger doesn't move with enough force to complete the last step, the smack of that copper connector across the contacts to energize the motor. Or, after 28 years and gosh knows how many switch cycles, the high current relay that is part of the starter is getting worn out, and no longer working freely. So I know how the starter should work, and the various conditions that contribute to the symptom I have.
What I'm looking for is information about how to tell if my 1991 Canadian delivered ExCab 4x4 22RE 5spd has the factory wiring corrected ie relay added? Do I look for that relay on the right fender just rear of the finned heat sink module, and if my truck has the relay, I can presume my trouble is a tired high-current relay that is part of the starter? And if my truck doesn't have a relay there, then do the mod?
And after all that, I have a spare starter, and had the truck jacked up and wheel off to replace it. Tried to see it from underneath, but theres a crossmember, front diff, and I can't get the starter from underneath. From the top theres the intake manifold, an air hose, and a bracket. The only way to touch the starter, but with only two contorted fingers, is through the access panel removed from inside the right front wheel. When I found the access that tight, I gave up for today and decided to consult the gurus here for inspiration/information. Is removing/installing a starter supposed to be this freakishly difficult? Or do I just not have the necessary joints in my forearms just above my wrists?
Any info to solve my click click click will be appreciated. This wiring fault possibility is news to me, and correcting it sounds easier than a starter change. Either way, I have more to learn.
D'oh.... I read and re-read RAD4Runners wiring flaw thread...
I had to read it about 4 times, look at the schematic several times, now I get it, the relay is there, its just potentially wired dumb. Only way to tell is by testing for continuity (low ohms) between pin 3 and pin 4 of starter relay with ignition switch off. With or without the wiring dumbness, the relay is present. Will look for wiring dumbness tomorrow.
Probably changing my starter... struggling to do it through the access panel in the right front wheelwell. Fun.
I looked again at my parts-bin of Yoda stuff. I have the spare starter, I pulled it from a truck that ran, marked 22RE-5spd. I also found a starter marked 22RE-auto. It looks shinier and newer and more freshly rebuilt than the one from the 22RE-5spd. Side to side, top to bottom, the starters look the same, have the same measurements of mounting flange, bolt pattern and length width etc. Same connecitons. Both starters bench-test OK with booster cables and jumping the trigger wire. Does anyone know if auto-5spd starters interchange? One is a Bosch rebuild, and one is Nippondenso.
Do NOT change your starter.
Do not replace your relay.
Do NOT fix what is not broken, leaving the known broken broke. That's one of the points of this thread.
Show us what you are working with.
Hard to see words.
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 12-07-2019 at 07:54 PM.
I agree with RAD4Runner. I would do more testing before replacing parts.
If you do need to replace the starter, generally either a 5-speed or auto starter will work with a truck with a manual transmission, but auto starters should be used in all trucks with automatic transmissions. The "auto" starters are more powerful for the extra load that the automatic transmissions put on the starter. For your truck, I would go with the NipponDenso starter, again, only if you need to replace the starter.
Thanks for the advice guys. I didn't make myself clear in my last post... My first task will be to look and check will be to see if the relay is wired faulty, and if so correct it. Correcting the wiring fault will be much easier than changing out the starter.
Yesterday, faced with the flakey-acting starter, I made the mistake of heading into the task of replacing the starter without checking the forum for whats really going on. I would have been major perplexed / annoyed had I been more persistent in changing the starter, and found that the problem remained.
So today I will look for, and correct if present, the relay wiring fault described by RAD4Runner. I'm really hoping its the relay wiring fault, that will be much easier than changing starter.
And its good to know the auto-trans starter will work for my 5spd truck, now I have two usable starters in my parts-bin, and I hope I don't need either of them.
I started by looking at my drivers side fender, for the starter relay. No such thing there, only the fuse panel (relay block 2 in FSM), two ADD vac solenoid valves, and the delay wiper relay timer: pass side fender, from the left is fuse panel/relay block 2, ADD vac solenoid valves, delay wiper timer relay. No starter relay.
Check the FSM, it says Starter Relay is round relay "A" on Junction Block 1, but no clear indication as to where Junction Block 1 is... fuse layout on junction block 1 in FSM matches the fuse layout of fuse panel on left side of drivers footwell, so that fuse panel in the footwell must be Junction Block 1. And relay "A" will be a round relay on upper right of that junction-block panel.
I Checked the wiring diagram in FSM, it is similar to RAD4Runner's above, with terminals 1 and 2 of the starter relay connected through to terminal ST-1 of the ignition switch, and thus the ignition switch carrying all of the current (~12 amps) drawn by the starter solenoid. In RAD4Runners thread explaining this wiring, his FSM diagram shows terminals 3 and 4 of the starter relay. It seems there are some year-to-year and model-to-model differences in relay terminal designations, and in locations of that starter relay. But the effect is the same; the ~12amps drawn by the starter solenoid is going through the ignition switch and all that wiring, which is not a good thing.
Thats where my Sunday afternoon ran out, its back to work tomorrow. I'm not sure whether I want to dig behind the left kick panel in the drivers footwell to run a current-carrying wire from the battery, or cut into the starter trigger wire under the hood above the starter, and add a relay there. Whichever way I go, I have the parts and materials on-hand, don't have to buy stuff. Either will accomplish reducing the load through the ignition switch.
Any thoughts or advice?
Last edited by jiggseob; 12-08-2019 at 03:07 PM.
Reason: spelling mistake tow to two
...It seems there are some year-to-year and model-to-model differences in relay terminal designations, and in locations of that starter relay.
Correct.
Electrically, earlier Toyota models were Frankenstein monsters.
In fact, although your schematic shows wrong wiring, I think your model is wired properly same as JPL and NTRBFox's. However, I believe your starter relay is the green one piggybacked on that fuse block behind the driver kick panel. That makes path for solenoid current go from battery to fuse block, to cabin, to starter relay on fuse block, back to engine compartment to starter solenoid. That still causes too much voltage drop on all the wiring.
Remember how I compared Toyota's Electrical engineers to its mechanical engineers back then?
If I'm right about the above, your fix would be to retrofit with a starter relay controlled by the control wire (spade connector) that currently goes to the starter solenoid.
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 12-09-2019 at 02:32 AM.
My Toyota acreage run-around truck waits for my attention for another day.
The behaviour of my intermittent starter makes sense. After a couple weeks of away working and 0F temp, the battery voltage in the Toyota would be low, maybe 11.5~11.7 volts. More click-click-clicks to get the starter to engage. After running for 10 minutes, warm up the engine bay, charge up the battery, it works first-click.
Yes, I will run a 10-ga wire from the battery to my relay, and further from my relay to the starter trigger spade connector. The existing starter trigger wire in the harness will operate my relay.
I hope that straightens everything out... Thanks again.
... maybe 11.5~11.7 volts. More click-click-clicks to get the starter to engage. ...
I'm really surprised you could get the starter to turn at all at that voltage. If that voltage is correct, I don't think 10ga wire is going to do much to help. Trickle charger? Block heater?
This morning my laser-dot thermometer measured -26 F on the top of my battery. My multi-meter across the posts measured 11.62 volts. With the key-on, headlights, heater fan, engine not running, that voltage dropped to 11.35 voilts. Voltage from a lead-acid battery is an electro-chemical process, which is affected (slowed) by temperature. I didn't try to start, I was intent on adding the relay to the starting system.
When bench-testing the relay with a variable voltage power supply, the contacts started to flutter when I lowered the actuating coil voltage below about 7.0 ~ 7.5 volts. Operating coil pulls about 250 milli-amps for a fraction of a second, then drops off to about 170 milliamps to hold. The operating coil does not have a diode on it, so it does not care about polarity. My relay only has two high current terminals that are NO, and does not have a NC high current terminal, so no worries about keeping that straight. When the operating coil is energized, no measurable resistance between high current terminals. When operating coil not energized, infinite resistance across high current terminals. Not much else to bench-test.
I did not "cut in" to the starter trigger wire on my truck. One of my parts-bin starters had six inches of the trigger wire still attached, complete with that connector that plugs to the trigger terminal of the starter. I connected that 6" piece of wire with the connector to the switched high-current wire from my relay. The other high-current terminal I connected to battery positive. I did the high current wiring in 10ga. To the actuating coil terminals of my relay, I connected one side to battery body ground, and the other side a couple feet of wire with a male spade connector, that I plugged into the harness connector that used to be the trigger wire to the starter. So once I had my relay socket wired with connectors, adding my relay to the start system was "plug-n-play"; ground connection, battery positive connection, plug into harness, plug to starter.
A quick test, and click-nothing. Wtf... Another click, and it engaged the starter and started with no clicking. About a dozen more starts, works the way it should, no click-nothings. I triple-taped the spade connector to harness trigger wire connection, fastened the relay up beside the underhood fuse panel, and zip-tied and tidied things in place.
So it functions much better than it did, before adding the relay, like last week, a -26F start would have taken at least 6 clicks. With the relay, other than the very first instance, it worked perfectly every time.
Still not 100% convinced it is 100% fixed. Leaving for work in a few minutes, we will see what 13 days of sitting in -20~30 some will do.
If this doesn't work, it will take 10 minutes to undo it, cut a few zip-ties, two ring terminals, and un-plug/re-plug the starter trigger wire. Maybe my off-the-shelf used relay scrounged from a dead Accord had some corrosion on the high current contacts that took one load cycle to clear. We will see in a couple weeks, probably -30 something by then.
Sorry, hard to see words.
Which relay are we talking about here?
Did you find out if your stock starter relay is wired properly?
Does it look like the JPL's and NTRBFox's I referred to above? (Green Relay)
Anyway, if you got it working great, but did you find out what was the problem?
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 12-09-2019 at 11:44 PM.
Added a relay from a Honda to the starter trigger wire
"The relay" I mention is one repurposed/scavenged from a Honda Accord, I think it was the starting load reduction relay in that application.
I did not dig into finding or metering the starter relay in my truck to find with absolute certainty that the wiring fault exists as described. The since-new previous owner, my brother-in-law, mentioned a starter-circus about 15~20 years ago, dealer replaced starter three times, battery cables, ignition switch, etc, and problem went away until now. The factory service manual shows that the wiring fault at the starter relay is there.
So I believe the wiring fault exists, I did not remove/dig behind the junction block fuse panel in the drivers footwell to find out. Yes, I do not KNOW all I should know to completely thoroughly diagnose.
I put together the following, and plugged it in. A picture of it would show a Honda starter load reduction relay:
Today and for the next 12 days I'm away at work, and will find out when I get back as to how effective my plug-in fix is. If the problem remains, it isn't caused by voltage-drop on the starter trigger circuit through the ignition switch, relay, and truck harness wiring. I can take out the above, and restore to previous/factory condition in a few minutes, but what would be the point of taking it out, it does correct that relay wiring fault (if it exists).
Then pull out all 4 hairs I have left.
...I put together the following, and plugged it in. A picture of it would show a Honda starter load reduction relay:
Sweet! Looks good! I'm very confident your fix will work. It should consistently make the starter solenoid click energetically. IF starter still does not crank even with solenoid clicking energetically, then, either:
1) Solenoid contact is worn out,
2) Connection to battery positive OR negative is poor.
Corrosion on connections does indeed cause all sorts of maddening intermittent electrical gremlins, those gremlins are most active when its bleeping cold out. My routine maintenance includes removing, cleaning, and installing with Kop-r-Kote the connections at both ends of the battery positive and negative cables, and that multi-ground terminal over by the air cleaner box and the multi-ground near that fuse-box in the drivers footwell.
My neighbour has called me up, we borrow stuff back and forth all the time. His wife drove off the edge of his driveway and he didn't have his tractor plugged in to pull her out, so he came and got my Yoda pickup. He knew I was having starter trouble. He reports that it took six or so clicks to get the starter to kick in. So, sadly, yes, I will be swapping starter when I get back.
After I go across the road to rescue my Yoda from the snowbank in the neighbours yard, he got stuck borrowing my truck to pull out his car. When I first got my truck, the front axle driveshaft boots were both holed, and I replaced both halfshafts. At that time, I also put manual locking hubs on, even though my truck has the ADD front diff. Anyways, the neighbour is a 30-something and only knows how to shift a 4x4 with a button on the dash. This stick on the floor 4x4 is horribly dinosaur to him. To avoid a chewed-out hub, I thought it best to just leave my Yoda stuck in his yard until I can make sure the hubs are turned all the way and then gently engage clutch until I know the hubs are fully clicked in. Manual-hubs? So yester-millenium...
I was in Vietnam earlier this year, rental vehicle was 4 door Chevrolet Colorado, with 2.4 litre turbodiesel engine, 6spd manual trans, stick-shift 4x4 with manual hubs. Used about 7 litres/100km actual during our use hauling two 125cc motorcycles and our crap around, about 33 miles per usgal, would have done better had we driven less crazy. Colorado Duramax diesel is available in Canada, but only with auto-slip trans, and only with pushbutton 4x4. The Canada diesel is 2.8litre, and costs like $8k + + for the diesel option packages.
The north american human herd gets over a very low-bar vehicle operation wise, and thats what we get to choose from.
Offerings with 4cyl engine, manual trans, manual t-case, and manual hubs are pretty much limited to Yoda I have now. I wish it had something of a door the the backseat area of the extended-cab.
The starter trigger relay described above is still in place, no reason to take it out. Yes, it was a tight and fiddly job. Replacement starter works perfectly, no more clicking and re-clicking.
While I had the starter out, I also pulled out the fuel filter because I hadn't ever touched it or replaced it. That fuel filter is in a horrible spot. With the starter out of the way, a bit easier to get the fuel filter, but still way more painful than a fuel filter should be. So, working with the rubber lines already there, I repositioned the fuel filter to the fender. Next time it will be a 10 minute easy job. The fuel filter I took out had lasted some 12+ years, and was still working. Unlikely it will ever need touching again. Had I put the fuel filter back under the intake manifold, Murphys law says I would need to replace it again in a few months.
Theres enough rubber line on the factory setup to put the filter here:
I like the idea of moving the fuel filter it to a more accessible spot. That being said, I didn't struggle a whole lot when I did mine. It wasn't the easiest thing to do, but a combination of accessing it through the wheel well and engine bay got it done in a fairly timely manner.
03-11-2016, 03:03 PM
