Hard/Long Crank & Slow Start (cold or hot) '85 22RE
09-14-2020, 07:57 PM
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Hard/Long Crank & Slow Start (cold or hot) '85 22RE
Car Specs: 1985 Toyota Pickup--22re EFI--2.4liter--Manual 4 speed--165k miles (bought it in 2017 with 93k)
Problem: About two weeks ago the car started having a hard/long time starting. Engine would crank/struggle anywhere from 3 to 10 seconds before eventually starting. When I drive car and turn off and restart within a few minutes it's faster to start but still takes a few seconds of cranking. If it sits for an hour or two (god forbid overnight) it seems all the fuel has gone from the rail and lines and it takes about 5-10 seconds of crank until it starts. Note: up until two weeks ago car would start immediately upon key turning, no chugging what-so-ever.
Note: Once the car starts, it runs perfectly fine, no skips/jitters/chugs/revs/misfires/etc. I never lose power on hills or when accelerating, it runs smooth as silk in all gears and hasn't skipped a single time since this issue starting happening, it's ONLY when starting. Hopefully that helps eliminate some of the problem areas that would still occasionally rear their head while driving.
What I HAVE tried/checked:
1. Air filter is clean
2. Coolant maintains it's full level for months
3. Oil - I burn/lose about a quart every 1,000 miles. Top up as needed. Some of that is probably burning out the tailpipe (although the smoke is white and sweeter, which makes me think antifreeze) and oil is dripping off the engine where a previous mechanic cracked the timing cover when over-tightening that bolt.
4. Battery - Reads 12.8v when off, and 14.3v when on. Tested good at Autozone
5. Starter - Installed (by me) 2 months ago. Tested good at Autozone
6. Alternator - finally went on me earlier this year, put that in myself in June. Also tested good at Autozone
7. Fuel Pressure Regulator - A mechanic friend and I were very confident that was my problem after reading some similar symptoms from a fella here on ToyNation. So I bought one and installed it, no change in symptoms.
8. Fuel Filter - had no idea if this was bad, and symptoms didn't point to it, but since I had never replaced it (have owned the rig for 4 years and 70k miles), I swapped it while the FPR was off and I had more room to access it.
9. Wiring to battery - I know wiring can be a culprit often times...I have a new heavy duty ground from negative battery to engine block about a year ago. also replaced the positive terminal and cleaned and re-did anything touching the battery, all (seemingly) in good shape, at least anything that touches the battery (I haven't played with any other hots or grounds)
10. Cold Start Valve - I took this off, and put the Ohm tester on it, and it read 4.8 ohms, which I hear is right around what it should read. So I think that part is good, but maybe it is letting fuel run back down the line
11. Fuel lines - for what it's worth I followed them from the tank (as close as I could get) to the engine, and they seem in good shape with no kinks or damage, and no leaks (at least not large enough to hit the ground), and the car runs perfectly fine once it starts, so makes me think fuel can flow fine once it's started.
12. Fuel Pump - dropped the tank yesterday and put in a new fuel pump and cleaned the sock/screen at the bottom, also cleaned out my fuel sending unit and rewired it so that works now. DIDN'T HELP ISSUE
13. New Plugs/Distributor/Rotor
14. Ignition Coil - I Installed a new one approx 1 year ago. Haven't tested anything there, but seems to be sending a good spark.
Things I have NOT checked:
1. Throttle Sensor - mechanic friend said there is a very low chance this is causing my long start issue, since the car idles and runs perfectly fine once it's started. Can I test this easily somehow?
2. Damper - any chance this has gone bad? How can I test?
3. Check Valve - is this part of the fuel filter, or some where outside of the tank?
4. A guy in ToyotaNation suggested this "Vacuum leaks - pcv valve, egr valve, intake manifold, air intake chamber, throttle body, and air between air flow meter and throttle body." Haven't tried any of that, as I don't think it's a vacuum leak, combined with I don't know how to test any of those things short of pulling off hoses and seeing if there is suction.
So here I am, after about 50 man-hours on this problem (most of which I really enjoyed, to be honest)...yet, I am $200 poorer (FPR + Filter + Fuel Pump + Plugs/Distributor Cap/Rotor), and the car still has trouble starting. Hoping there is someone out there who can point me in the right direction.
Huge love for all the help, and if I missed anything that would help the diagnoses just ask,
Mike
p.s. Here is our rig if anyone wants to see it.
Problem: About two weeks ago the car started having a hard/long time starting. Engine would crank/struggle anywhere from 3 to 10 seconds before eventually starting. When I drive car and turn off and restart within a few minutes it's faster to start but still takes a few seconds of cranking. If it sits for an hour or two (god forbid overnight) it seems all the fuel has gone from the rail and lines and it takes about 5-10 seconds of crank until it starts. Note: up until two weeks ago car would start immediately upon key turning, no chugging what-so-ever.
Note: Once the car starts, it runs perfectly fine, no skips/jitters/chugs/revs/misfires/etc. I never lose power on hills or when accelerating, it runs smooth as silk in all gears and hasn't skipped a single time since this issue starting happening, it's ONLY when starting. Hopefully that helps eliminate some of the problem areas that would still occasionally rear their head while driving.
What I HAVE tried/checked:
1. Air filter is clean
2. Coolant maintains it's full level for months
3. Oil - I burn/lose about a quart every 1,000 miles. Top up as needed. Some of that is probably burning out the tailpipe (although the smoke is white and sweeter, which makes me think antifreeze) and oil is dripping off the engine where a previous mechanic cracked the timing cover when over-tightening that bolt.
4. Battery - Reads 12.8v when off, and 14.3v when on. Tested good at Autozone
5. Starter - Installed (by me) 2 months ago. Tested good at Autozone
6. Alternator - finally went on me earlier this year, put that in myself in June. Also tested good at Autozone
7. Fuel Pressure Regulator - A mechanic friend and I were very confident that was my problem after reading some similar symptoms from a fella here on ToyNation. So I bought one and installed it, no change in symptoms.
8. Fuel Filter - had no idea if this was bad, and symptoms didn't point to it, but since I had never replaced it (have owned the rig for 4 years and 70k miles), I swapped it while the FPR was off and I had more room to access it.
9. Wiring to battery - I know wiring can be a culprit often times...I have a new heavy duty ground from negative battery to engine block about a year ago. also replaced the positive terminal and cleaned and re-did anything touching the battery, all (seemingly) in good shape, at least anything that touches the battery (I haven't played with any other hots or grounds)
10. Cold Start Valve - I took this off, and put the Ohm tester on it, and it read 4.8 ohms, which I hear is right around what it should read. So I think that part is good, but maybe it is letting fuel run back down the line
11. Fuel lines - for what it's worth I followed them from the tank (as close as I could get) to the engine, and they seem in good shape with no kinks or damage, and no leaks (at least not large enough to hit the ground), and the car runs perfectly fine once it starts, so makes me think fuel can flow fine once it's started.
12. Fuel Pump - dropped the tank yesterday and put in a new fuel pump and cleaned the sock/screen at the bottom, also cleaned out my fuel sending unit and rewired it so that works now. DIDN'T HELP ISSUE
13. New Plugs/Distributor/Rotor
14. Ignition Coil - I Installed a new one approx 1 year ago. Haven't tested anything there, but seems to be sending a good spark.
Things I have NOT checked:
1. Throttle Sensor - mechanic friend said there is a very low chance this is causing my long start issue, since the car idles and runs perfectly fine once it's started. Can I test this easily somehow?
2. Damper - any chance this has gone bad? How can I test?
3. Check Valve - is this part of the fuel filter, or some where outside of the tank?
4. A guy in ToyotaNation suggested this "Vacuum leaks - pcv valve, egr valve, intake manifold, air intake chamber, throttle body, and air between air flow meter and throttle body." Haven't tried any of that, as I don't think it's a vacuum leak, combined with I don't know how to test any of those things short of pulling off hoses and seeing if there is suction.
So here I am, after about 50 man-hours on this problem (most of which I really enjoyed, to be honest)...yet, I am $200 poorer (FPR + Filter + Fuel Pump + Plugs/Distributor Cap/Rotor), and the car still has trouble starting. Hoping there is someone out there who can point me in the right direction.
Huge love for all the help, and if I missed anything that would help the diagnoses just ask,
Mike
p.s. Here is our rig if anyone wants to see it.
09-15-2020, 09:41 AM
#2
Registered User
Cold Start Injector Time Switch? A ton of info & fixes here: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...t-fine-244180/
Additional Info: https://lcengineering.com/fuel-injec...r-time-switch/
Really great & complete diagnosis info you provided sir.
Additional Info: https://lcengineering.com/fuel-injec...r-time-switch/
Really great & complete diagnosis info you provided sir.
09-16-2020, 03:38 AM
#3
Registered User
Great Sunrader camper and cool trip you are on with your wife, I looked a bit at your website.
13Swords pointed you to some good links for the Cold Start Switch, and if it were me, I'd definitely suspect the cold start switch or the cold start injector itself.
One other thing you might do is to jumper the Fp to B+ in the diagnostic connector under the hood and see if that changes the behavior. There is a relay inside the vehicle called the COR (circuit opening relay) and it has to be closed in order for fuel pump to have power. The COR closes in response to the flapper in the AFM opening, and it opens when your engine starts sucking in air. By putting a jumper in the Fp to B+, you bypass the COR relay. Don't keep the jumper in there permanently because this is a safety feature, fuel pump shuts off when engine stops. If the jumper resolves the issue, then you need to look at the COR relay and make sure AFM opening is closing the relay.
13Swords pointed you to some good links for the Cold Start Switch, and if it were me, I'd definitely suspect the cold start switch or the cold start injector itself.
One other thing you might do is to jumper the Fp to B+ in the diagnostic connector under the hood and see if that changes the behavior. There is a relay inside the vehicle called the COR (circuit opening relay) and it has to be closed in order for fuel pump to have power. The COR closes in response to the flapper in the AFM opening, and it opens when your engine starts sucking in air. By putting a jumper in the Fp to B+, you bypass the COR relay. Don't keep the jumper in there permanently because this is a safety feature, fuel pump shuts off when engine stops. If the jumper resolves the issue, then you need to look at the COR relay and make sure AFM opening is closing the relay.
09-16-2020, 10:51 AM
#4
Keep in mind the fuel pump will be running when you put the key to run. The test you're doing is to let the fuel system pressurize, turn the key on with the fuel pump test jumper in place and wait a few seconds before you try to start the engine. If this starts it reliably the check valve in the pump is leaking.
Another simple test is to give it a little throttle, opening the throttle plate will give it more air and combat over fueling due to both the coldstart system, leaking injectors, or sensor discrepancy.
Finally you can try pulling the vacuum line of the fuel pressure regulator, this bypasses the fuel pressure up strategy of the ECU which it bases on temperature sensors.
Another simple test is to give it a little throttle, opening the throttle plate will give it more air and combat over fueling due to both the coldstart system, leaking injectors, or sensor discrepancy.
Finally you can try pulling the vacuum line of the fuel pressure regulator, this bypasses the fuel pressure up strategy of the ECU which it bases on temperature sensors.
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